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Do you think cons deserve some nondoc AI upgrade ?

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Katitof
26 Mar 2019, 21:22 PM
#21
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2019, 19:59 PMVipper

Either the trend of buffing units will continue (resulting in reducing the time player have to react and having to buff QCQ units even more) or will see a return to using grenadiers as the benchmark and units available before minute 1 will be toned down. I prefer the second.

We don't need to do endless buff loop.
We need to bring mid and late game cons on the level of LMG grens, so they actually can contest any infantry. Axis elites roflstomp them so bad its not even funny, volks and grens outscale their high vet without any effort through weapon upgrades. Something that isn't DP-28 is needed at T3/T4 level to make them cost efficient infantry.

Even the shittiest infantry in game, osttruppen, outscales cons now with LMG upgrade.
It simply baffles my mind what kind of mental gymnastics were performed to get to the conclusion that doctrinal meme unit for early map control and recrewing team weapons should get weapon upgrade, but mainline infantry that is supposed to be army's backbone shouldn't after so many years of the exact same problem existing.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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distrofio
26 Mar 2019, 21:25 PM
#22
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Posts: 2358

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2019, 21:22 PMKatitof

...Even the shittiest infantry in game, osttruppen, outscales cons now with LMG upgrade...

You can count on Ostruppen, no really you can!

To be fair, katitof has a valid point, again.
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jagd wölfe
26 Mar 2019, 21:28 PM
#23
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Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2019, 21:22 PMKatitof

We don't need to do endless buff loop.
We need to bring mid and late game cons on the level of LMG grens, so they actually can contest any infantry.


Ehm...not really.
https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198119448887

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2021, 07:47 AMKatitof

They certainly hide from me.
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The_Usurper86
27 Mar 2019, 18:37 PM
#24
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Posts: 48

I'd like to play devils advocate for a second and ask, What would be the drawbacks from giving cons an upgrade. Where is the potential in it ruining the balance of things? I'd like to see the reasoning for why players wouldn't want this?
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insaneHoshi
27 Mar 2019, 21:51 PM
#25
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2019, 21:22 PMKatitof

We need to bring mid and late game cons on the level of LMG grens, so they actually can contest any infantry.


Why should 6 model units perform equally as 4 men units, since its it would be imbalanced that the 4 man unit would trade should be trading durability for some offensive advantage.
Imagine my playercard is here
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Katitof
27 Mar 2019, 22:01 PM
#26
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2019, 21:51 PMinsaneHoshi


Why should 6 model units perform equally as 4 men units, since its it would be imbalanced that the 4 man unit would trade should be trading durability for some offensive advantage.

You misunderstood me, I'm not talking about mirroring its dps, I'm talking about bringing up its combat cost efficiency.

If reducing reinforce cost by say 50% would achieve that goal, then go that way.

And, as clearly evidenced by any game where cons are used without ppsh doctrine, durability gives ZERO advantage over weapon upgrade, that's literally why cons are never used without ppsh doctrines(unless you don't really care about winning that game, looking at you VonIvan), making them the only stock doctrinal infantry. So I'm afraid stock weapon upgrade could be the only viable option here.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Grim
27 Mar 2019, 22:10 PM
#27
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Posts: 1096

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Mar 2019, 18:41 PMStug life
as i always said cons gets non doc upgrade when ost get 5 man non doc upgrade


No one cares what you said.
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aerafield
27 Mar 2019, 22:25 PM
#28
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If I would be in charge for cons balance, I would fuse molotov + at nade together and keep it at 25 fuel and add another upgrade to the HQ called "PPsh packages" for 40 fuel which unlocks the access to the 3x PPsh upgrade for each cons (same like the one from doctrines, cost 60 mun)

Then I would swap the PPsh package slot from the commanders with "1x DP1928 + Hit the Dirt!", cost 40 mun.
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Katitof
27 Mar 2019, 22:27 PM
#29
avatar of Katitof

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Stock ppsh would be WAAY too strong.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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aerafield
27 Mar 2019, 22:35 PM
#30
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Posts: 3032 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2019, 22:27 PMKatitof
Stock ppsh would be WAAY too strong.


yeh its not easy, it might be a bit OP in 1v1
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SeductiveCardbordBox
28 Mar 2019, 10:21 AM
#31
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Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

How about we let them have a passive molotov weapon, the same way the REs in the new american get to fire rifle grenades.

They still need to be in spitting distance to throw it so it'll hardly matter, but at least it would look cool


Jokes aside. A tier 4 upgrade that just gave consctips combat training / veteran leadership? In practical terms it could just be a swap of the usual conscript mosin for one with better long range accuracy, and drops their target size back to normal levels?

No idea if an Icon Swap is possible but the campaign already has three different consctipt icons.

You could even bundle the hideously overpriced molotovs and AT grenades into one upgrade that you need to get the second upgrade
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Musti
28 Mar 2019, 12:29 PM
#32
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Posts: 203

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Mar 2019, 10:21 AMSeductiveCardbordBox
Jokes aside. A tier 4 upgrade that just gave consctips combat training / veteran leadership? In practical terms it could just be a swap of the usual conscript mosin for one with better long range accuracy, and drops their target size back to normal levels?

No idea if an Icon Swap is possible but the campaign already has three different consctipt icons.

You could even bundle the hideously overpriced molotovs and AT grenades into one upgrade that you need to get the second upgrade
Been here, done that, suggested already
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Feb 2019, 21:39 PMMusti

Both name change and icon change is possible, we have that in the game already (Assault Tommies change icon when upgraded/ M15 halftruck changes name with AA package), I don't know what other changes are possible though (different vet/vet requirements?)

The "Cons discussion" comes up every now and then, everyone agrees they need "something", and then nothing is done about them. You can't touch their base stats because "muh holy gren/con balance" and you can't give them a decent late game DPS upgrade because "hurr con spam", you can do whatever you want to their utility, because utility doesn't kill the enemy, you can't lower their base cost because "hurr con spam".
I guess you could lower their reinforce cost, if you want to lose firefights cheaply.
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Crecer13
28 Mar 2019, 13:07 PM
#33
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Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Mar 2019, 10:21 AMSeductiveCardbordBox
How about we let them have a passive molotov weapon, the same way the REs in the new american get to fire rifle grenades.

They still need to be in spitting distance to throw it so it'll hardly matter, but at least it would look cool


Jokes aside. A tier 4 upgrade that just gave consctips combat training / veteran leadership? In practical terms it could just be a swap of the usual conscript mosin for one with better long range accuracy, and drops their target size back to normal levels?

No idea if an Icon Swap is possible but the campaign already has three different consctipt icons.

You could even bundle the hideously overpriced molotovs and AT grenades into one upgrade that you need to get the second upgrade


I agree, I have long said that by getting the 3rd level of veterancy, conscripts become veterans or line infantry or just "strelki". When conscripts get the 3rd level of veterans, you can spend resources (man power / ammunition?) For "reorganization" - change the name, replace with better Mosins, replace the icon with standard Emblems on the buttonholes of the infantry units of the Red Army / NKVD type 1940.

Two rifles on the background of the target - this shows that they have become more professional, accurate. May be replace Molotov by frag grenade at the third level of vet.
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RoastinGhost
28 Mar 2019, 20:06 PM
#34
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Posts: 416 | Subs: 1

I personally like the asymmetry of not giving all factions weapon upgrades. It leads to an issue with Conscript scaling, but that could be solved instead via global upgrades.

Reduce reinforcement cost by 1 or 2 for molotov and AT grenade tech, unless PPSh is upgraded.

Maybe even let Cons buy a little veterancy with munitions after T4 is up, so losing the squad is easier to recover from, like other factions.

Lots of options other than making the factions identical.
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Stug life
28 Mar 2019, 20:13 PM
#35
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Posts: 4474

want to fix cons ?
give them at tier 4 free upgrade for 3 guard rifle (if u are asking why not STV ask the mod team why they put them in doc)
but so ost should get a 0.9-0.95 reduced damage on PG and gren at tier 4
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
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Katitof
28 Mar 2019, 20:41 PM
#36
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Mar 2019, 20:13 PMStug life
want to fix cons ?
give them at tier 4 free upgrade for 3 guard rifle (if u are asking why not STV ask the mod team why they put them in doc)
but so ost should get a 0.9-0.95 reduced damage on PG and gren at tier 4

Umm, you do realize grens START with 0.91 rec acc and PGs START with 0.8?

Just asking.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Stug life
28 Mar 2019, 20:48 PM
#37
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Mar 2019, 20:41 PMKatitof

Umm, you do realize grens START with 0.91 rec acc and PGs START with 0.8?

Just asking.
i know, the 0.9 or 0.95 would just let them avoid the random wipes as they are 4 men, and yes it would improve their durability in combat too, maybe nerf vet RA but no more random wipes
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
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Katitof
28 Mar 2019, 21:20 PM
#38
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Random wipes by what?

Small arms are anything but random and rec acc does nothing against explosives and ballistics.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Stug life
28 Mar 2019, 21:35 PM
#39
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Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Mar 2019, 21:20 PMKatitof
Random wipes by what?

Small arms are anything but random and rec acc does nothing against explosives and ballistics.
i said damage
"but so ost should get a 0.9-0.95 reduced damage on PG and gren at tier 4 "
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
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Katitof
28 Mar 2019, 21:44 PM
#40
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Ok, I see.
I assumed you misspelled due to how batshit insanely OP reduced damage on infantry is.
Remember that even 1% reduced damage adds 10% durability against simple 8 dmg rifle.

There is a good balance reason reduced damage bulletins were some of the first to get scrapped.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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