Tiger PzKpfw VI

1. Tiger needs more range, from 45 (Vet2 50) to 50 (Vet 2 55)
2. Pershing has to get same stats as Tiger (that would be an AI nerf)

So Tiger becomes easyer to play and it doens't look so bad in comparison with Paershing animor (or Pershing stops beeing way better than Tiger).

In order to fix this jacksons problem, i give you:
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You could make the m10 the nondoc medium counter (High DPS lower pen) and the Jackson the nondoc heavier counter (Lower DPS high Pen).

Other factions typically have 2+ units that counter tank unit types, IE Light/medium counter (Su76, Stug jp4) and a Heavy Counter (IE Firefly Su85 Panther). Issue is right now that USF only has one so it has to take up 2-3 tank type slots (Light/Medium Counter, Heavy Counter, Brawler(ish)). Therefore you get a TD that has high dps, high mobility, and high pen making good against literally everything. If USF had another Medium TD option than the jackson could be made to solely focus around counter heavy tanks and be more similar to the Firefly/Su85.

If you just added the m10 than USF would have 0 nondoc options against Panthers Tigers etc.

You could make the m10 the nondoc medium counter (High DPS lower pen) and the Jackson the nondoc heavier counter (Lower DPS high Pen).

Other factions typically have 2+ units that counter tank unit types, IE Light/medium counter (Su76, Stug jp4) and a Heavy Counter (IE Firefly Su85 Panther). Issue is right now that USF only has one so it has to take up 2-3 tank type slots (Light/Medium Counter, Heavy Counter, Brawler(ish)). Therefore you get a TD that has high dps, high mobility, and high pen making good against literally everything. If USF had another Medium TD option than the jackson could be made to solely focus around counter heavy tanks and be more similar to the Firefly/Su85.

If you just added the m10 than USF would have 0 nondoc options against Panthers Tigers etc.

Why not just make the normal AP and HVAP shells a toggle with different attributes and long change over time? That would promote combined armored pushes against jacksons but still allow it to perform all the roles it needs to in the usf roster, just not at the same time (think isu152)

Why not just make the normal AP and HVAP shells a toggle with different attributes and long change over time? That would promote combined armored pushes against jacksons but still allow it to perform all the roles it needs to in the usf roster, just not at the same time (think isu152)

That would probably work also and probably more likely to be implemented

Tiger itself seems to be okay imo, it's just that OST needs tanks that support their infantry, so strong heavy tanks are kinda pointless. No matter what you do as OST your infantry will be outclassed in either DPS or staying power in the late game. You need *mobile* armor there to tank for them. The tiger simply can't do this as its speed means it'll always be out of position. On the offense it can absorb a lot more damage than a PZ4 true, but its speed means it'll also take a lot of more HP damage. This puts more demand on already overworked pios, while also creating really big windows for counter-attacks.

If the tiger itself should be buffed it should be it's maneuverability. TBH though I'd rather there be more hand-held AT options for OST. The problem with tank destroyers for OST isn't that they're particularly OP units. It's that you have very limited AT options besides armor to actually deal with tank destroyers. Paks are okay AT guns themselves, but you really don't have the infantry staying power for them to be on the frontlines. Meanwhile panzergrens/ stormtroopers with shrecks will very rarely get off more than one volley before needing to retreat, while also being a questionable use of manpower.

Vipper, you need to start practicing what you preach. Your desire to clean up the forums is commendable, but your words hold little weight when you're just as bad as everyone else the rest of the time.

read his posts carefully, he does not do that. he simply provides (the right) stats and answers very precisely. ive never seen him beeing personal. if you have seem him beeing personal or incorrect, be so kind and give some proof.

In order to fix this jacksons problem, i give you:
Show Spoiler

That would fuck usf over in teamgames even more

Why not just make the normal AP and HVAP shells a toggle with different attributes and long change over time? That would promote combined armored pushes against jacksons but still allow it to perform all the roles it needs to in the usf roster, just not at the same time (think isu152)

Or just give usf easy 8's without a doctrine and buff its pen so it can go against panthers. Then we can nerf jakson fire rate and give it more pen so it remains good vs heavies. The easy 8's ai is pretty similar to the panthers ai currently, so I don't see an issue with a pen buff. I would make an extra tier for usf. The extra tier would have e8's, rocket arty, and maybe elite infantry.


The tiger may be a little worse than the pershing at lower vets lvls. However, Tiger doctrines are better than the heavy cav doctrine, lightning war especially. Last time I saw pershing being used in a tournament, I saw ostheer knock it out twice with the tiger and stuka anti tank loiter.

I do like the option of buffing the range on Tiger but I think that would shift the balance in 1 v 1s.

That would fuck usf over in teamgames even more

This is mainly about 1v1. Teamgames wont get ruined. Teamgames offer a lot of combinations and currently pz4 is the most dominant tank, a nondoc counter will be a buff to USF

You could make the m10 the nondoc medium counter (High DPS lower pen) and the Jackson the nondoc heavier counter (Lower DPS high Pen).
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If you just added the m10 than USF would have 0 nondoc options against Panthers Tigers etc.

That means an overbuff to the recently reworked USF and thats not my point nor fair.
M10 could still flank panthers btw and for the first time usf will use a neuron on tank fights...

Or just give usf easy 8's without a doctrine and buff its pen so it can go against panthers. Then we can nerf jakson fire rate and give it more pen so it remains good vs heavies. The easy 8's ai is pretty similar to the panthers ai currently, so I don't see an issue with a pen buff. I would make an extra tier for usf. The extra tier would have e8's, rocket arty, and maybe elite infantry.

No tnx, a clone of firefly and a mini comet for USF wont be original neither funny to play.

This is mainly about 1v1. Teamgames wont get ruined. Teamgames offer a lot of combinations and currently pz4 is the most dominant tank, a nondoc counter will be a buff to USF


That means an overbuff to the recently reworked USF and thats not my point nor fair.
M10 could still flank panthers btw and for the first time usf will use a neuron on tank fights...

if this is 1v1, then you have been checkmated. Usf don't spam tds in 1v1. Most games are about getting shermans or pershing. At guns are used with anti-infantry vehicles with usf. M10 strats are making a comeback though.

if this is 1v1, then you have been checkmated. Usf don't spam tds in 1v1. Most games are about getting shermans or pershing. At guns are used with anti-infantry vehicles with usf. M10 strats are making a comeback though.

The only reason they're not "spammed" in 1v1 is because you'd never need more than one. Sherman's/ Pershings are only rushed to exploit a timing window before OST has armor presence.

The only reason they're not "spammed" in 1v1 is because you'd never need more than one. Sherman's/ Pershings are only rushed to exploit a timing window before OST has armor presence.

Tds are useless vs lone capping squads. Everyone in one's runs around with p4's, shermans, or t34s hitting cap points. People use these tanks to hit lone capping squads away from the enemies main army. This works because players don't take their at guns to the edges of the map. When the enemy turns their army to counter your lone medium, you bring your medium to the other side of the map. Tds are only built in response to armor that mediums or at guns can't take on. You won't be able to prevent panthers from hitting your sneak-capping-infantry with mediums or at guns. You need something to chase it down from one side of the map to the other if the situation needs it.

The problem is clearly not in one's, but one's is usually the game mode that gets balanced, so people lie on the forums to make it sound like the issue is with one's also. Most of these changes are more 2's or up type changes. If td spam were an issue in 1's, we would be seeing this abuse in every 1v1 tournament, but we don't. So simply say this is 2's and up to avoid confusion.

You are also wrong thinking that pro players are going to leave their jaksons without their crew.

What "pros" do is quite irrelevant in this case because "pro" players would not be an position to have 2 M36s in their army composition if they didn't need them. Thus they will not be in position to have 2 idle M36s.

You are way out of touch with in-game strats.

Again this is not about me personally. It has been argued that building 2 M36s put USF players in disadvantage because 40% (actually 32%) of their Pop it taken by AT vehicles. I have simply point out that this not the case because any one who has 2 idle USF vehicles should disembark their crew to reduce his upkeep.

I understand how it can feel lackluster when less expensive TDs pen every shot, but the Tiger is the golden standard of what heavies should be. Not yolo in tank that can solo enemy team weapons with no additional support, but the final piece to your army composition that can operate on its own with some regard, but has its designated counters as well.

+1

It’s also a lot better than the IS2 but it just suffers from the fact that allied players tend to just spam TDs a lot of the time instead of making mediums. If that’s the case then a) you might wan to not get a tiger, or will have to adjust how you use it in that particular match accordingly and b) take advantage of the fact that he can’t fight infantry as well or at all with his armor.

Again this is not about me personally. It has been argued that building 2 M36s put USF players in disadvantage because 40% (actually 32%) of their Pop it taken by AT vehicles. I have simply point out that this not the case because any one who has 2 idle USF vehicles should disembark their crew to reduce his upkeep.

While usf is uniquely able to circumvent that part of it, it’s not just pop and upkeep though. You’ve spent 280 fuel and 800 mp on units that can only fight tanks and even decrewing your vehicle doesn’t help that part. Imagine playing for a significant amount of time with an 800 mp, 280 fuel float. Definitely an issue that you’re going to be feeling. You also obviously don’t have any armor to fight infantry. In exchange you get an excellent TD though.

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While usf is uniquely able to circumvent that part of it, it’s not just pop and upkeep though. You’ve spent 280 fuel and 800 mp on units that can only fight tanks and even decrewing your vehicle doesn’t help that part. Imagine playing for a significant amount of time with an 800 mp, 280 fuel float. Definitely an issue that you’re going to be feeling. You also obviously don’t have any armor to fight infantry. In exchange you get an excellent TD though.

Any faction that has invested in TD while not facing tanks is in a disadvantage. USF suffer less than other factions since they combine powerful infantry and vehicles crews.

What "pros" do is quite irrelevant in this case because "pro" players would not be an position to have 2 M36s in their army composition if they didn't need them. Thus they will not be in position to have 2 idle M36s.


Again this is not about me personally. It has been argued that building 2 M36s put USF players in disadvantage because 40% (actually 32%) of their Pop it taken by AT vehicles. I have simply point out that this not the case because any one who has 2 idle USF vehicles should disembark their crew to reduce his upkeep.

You can't do that in a normal game. Every time you retreat your infantry, you have to get out of your vehicles, to reinforce them. That does not work in competitive games. It sounds good on paper, but reality is different. If popcap abuse was an actual viable strat, Usf would be untouchable in tournaments. You could almost 2v1 with 15 tanks.

I understand how it can feel lackluster when less expensive TDs pen every shot, but the Tiger is the golden standard of what heavies should be. Not yolo in tank that can solo enemy team weapons with no additional support, but the final piece to your army composition that can operate on its own with some regard, but has its designated counters as well.

I feel the Tiger, as opposed to the other heavies, is too easy to shut down. The KT has the armor and the hitpoints to take some TD shots, the IS-2 has high armor and faces either low pen, short range or low ROF TDs. The Churchill has a giant pool of hitpoints.

The Tiger meanwhile has no armor and rather low HP and can be pushed off the field by a single TD against which it can't do anything. Its decent gun performance and mobility are the only saving graces.

I think it deserves +5 base range so it isn't a single TD's vet Piñata and has an easier time fighting back TDs, and doesn't have to be within knife fighting range to deal damage.

Any faction that has invested in TD while not facing tanks is in a disadvantage. USF suffer less than other factions since they combine powerful infantry and vehicles crews.

First half of that statement is completely incorrect.
In fact, getting a counter for a unit that haven't arrived yet is what's called "anticipation" and it has dual benefit.
First, if opponent does get the unit, you already have a counter for it on the field and opponents shock value is reduced to zero.
Second, if your opponent is aware of the unit, he is less likely to build what he planned to build, again, nullifying shock value of stronger unit and if he gets the unit anyway, he is going to be much more conservative with its use, not diving for securing a wipe.

You basically exchange possible shock value of your own tank into defensive game and deterring opponent from comitting to his armor.

So no, there is no disadvantage of investing in TD before you see opponents tank.
There is however a disadvantage of getting multiple before opponent gets any armor.

Vehicle crews are hardly relevant here, the cost of TD however is since you'll have only defensive armor presence and will have to rely on infantry/lights preserved until that time and strength of rifles can be completely nullified by one well micro'd ost sniper.