Conscripts need to be cheaper

For the sake of example, 50% of 1 is still less then 40% of 2.
Where 1 is cons firepower and 2 is whatever any other squad, say grens.

Highest vet argument is completely irrelevant if you have no stock access to weapon upgrades and worst base weapon in game.

PLS once more stop quoting me if you what a you are posting is irrelevant to what you have quote from my post.

I did not present any argument I provided facts. PLS STOP your crusade of trying to prove me, it is getting ridiculous when you questioning facts.

PLS once more stop quoting me if you what a you are posting is irrelevant to what you have quote from my post.

I did not present any argument I provided facts. PLS STOP your crusade of trying to prove me, it is getting ridiculous when you questioning facts.

Ok.

Will you also stop posting completely irrelevant, derailing "facts" with sole purpose of misleading people into believing the unit got different performance then it actually has?

Can we not devolve this thread into a pissing match please.

For my input: having great vet isn't an ideal way to balance a unit if it comes as a lump at the end with no aid to get there. Once enemy weapon upgrades hit the field cons have an uphill battle, and once the enemy gets vet as well all hope is lost. And locking any capability behind vet 3 means losing the squad is beyond catastrophic since there is no weapon upgrade to dampen the blow.

Powerful vet 3 was a cop out and didn't fix the core issues with the unit. We could slap a 0.2 damage modifier on the KTs vet 5 but that's not going to make it a good unit.

That's why I never usually play SOV.
OST can just go with his grens blob mg42 killing any my cons and blowing up maxims with rifle nades making me bleed hard on manpower, not allowing to tech up for the T70.
USF rifleman loosing man even quickly, but anyway their units do not suck as cons on DPS.
UKF is best faction with best infantry you could have to withstand the volks blob.

Well i dont really think conscript are that bad. Maybe i dont play at high enough levels.


But in 95% of my russian build i choose for a conscript build over penals.


They are a good tough squad.
They have decent good snare
Molotov comes handy in city maps


That are the basic toughts about their combat effectiveness. Besides they are super flexible in their utility.

Uurah for speed and flanking mgs
Merge into more usefull squad (think about flame engies or guards)
Tripwireflare, this is so cost effective.
And all the doctrinal stuff you can alter them with.

Conlusion, i think they are OK. Vet gain i dont really know. Maybe make the molotov somewhat a more viable option? In teching cost are usage cost i dont know. Just some more anti-inf capabilities.

Can we not devolve this thread into a pissing match please.

For my input: having great vet isn't an ideal way to balance a unit if it comes as a lump at the end with no aid to get there. Once enemy weapon upgrades hit the field cons have an uphill battle, and once the enemy gets vet as well all hope is lost. And locking any capability behind vet 3 means losing the squad is beyond catastrophic since there is no weapon upgrade to dampen the blow.

Powerful vet 3 was a cop out and didn't fix the core issues with the unit. We could slap a 0.2 damage modifier on the KTs vet 5 but that's not going to make it a good unit.

I agree that the vet isn't an ideal way to balance a unit. Not to mention how problematic it was back when we had the old Brits drop vickers for con terminators. Even now if Cons are lucky enough to pick up any dropped weapon they become really powerful but I would rather not have to rely on picking up weapons to make a squad useful.

I think either cheaper cons or a buff to their mosins might help them a bit. If the mosins make their vet 3 too strong then a nerf to the vet 3 is fine by me for some more consistency throughout the game.

Some Kind of T4 upgrade would indeed be cool. IMO 2 choices in the T4 building , DP28 or PPSH for range or close competency would give cool Utility

Well i dont really think conscript are that bad. Maybe i dont play at high enough levels.


But in 95% of my russian build i choose for a conscript build over penals.


They are a good tough squad.
They have decent good snare
Molotov comes handy in city maps


That are the basic toughts about their combat effectiveness. Besides they are super flexible in their utility.

Uurah for speed and flanking mgs
Merge into more usefull squad (think about flame engies or guards)
Tripwireflare, this is so cost effective.
And all the doctrinal stuff you can alter them with.

Conlusion, i think they are OK. Vet gain i dont really know. Maybe make the molotov somewhat a more viable option? In teching cost are usage cost i dont know. Just some more anti-inf capabilities.

Volks are slightly less durable.
Utility is simaler
Dps is much better, non doc stg invalidates cons close range advantidge. Pssh,s correct that.

Volk can build sanbags, deney cover, snare just like cons. Unlike cons the can salvage wiped team weapons, deneying recrewing 100% and ganing recourses. They can self heal with vet at no extra cost. They have no side tech wich delays techup, they just get all of their stuff as you techup. And ofcourse have a non doc ai no brainer upgrade.

Merge and oorah dont make up for lacking ai upgrade an poor weapons or side tech and doctrines exclusives for cons to give basic utilities or abilities.

Eather volks cost need to go up, but then tommies and rifles are to cheap by comparison. Or cons cost must go down. Imo they have no busniss costing the same as grens and only 10 mp less then volks while both stomp them in too the ground.

Cons are still more efficient than volks as they have 80 more hp cost less to reinforce and have way better vet

they should add a dp 28 upgrade at tier 4 but only when grren get the same treatment and get the fifth man at tier 4

Cons are still more efficient than volks as they have 80 more hp cost less to reinforce and have way better vet

they should add a dp 28 upgrade at tier 4 but only when grren get the same treatment and get the fifth man at tier 4

Just read a previous post, man. Every their additional HP compared to others get crushed by actual sturmpios and STG wep upgrade.

Volks are slightly less durable.
Utility is simaler
Dps is much better, non doc stg invalidates cons close range advantidge. Pssh,s correct that.

Volk can build sanbags, deney cover, snare just like cons. Unlike cons the can salvage wiped team weapons, deneying recrewing 100% and ganing recourses. They can self heal with vet at no extra cost. They have no side tech wich delays techup, they just get all of their stuff as you techup. And ofcourse have a non doc ai no brainer upgrade.

Merge and oorah dont make up for lacking ai upgrade an poor weapons or side tech and doctrines exclusives for cons to give basic utilities or abilities.

Eather volks cost need to go up, but then tommies and rifles are to cheap by comparison. Or cons cost must go down. Imo they have no busniss costing the same as grens and only 10 mp less then volks while both stomp them in too the ground.

Conscripts vs grenadier where some of the best balanced much ups and Conscript got buffed since then, they should be fine.

Conscripts vs Volks is another story mainly because of the ST44 imo.

Conscripts vs grenadier where some of the best balanced much ups and Conscript got buffed since then, they should be fine.

Conscripts vs Volks is another story mainly because of the ST44 imo.

Yes i agree. The stg44 imo is the game changer for volks v cons.

I agree also that the gren cons balance is good. Cons are more recource and micro intensive to get on the grens level, while grens are more fragile but do an overall better job without out the same player input.

Because of that i believe cons should be cheaper. They need a lot extra to get on the same level.

Aren't volksgrendiers literally translate to Civilian Soldiers and if I remember history right, Volks should be on par of Conscripts since thats what they were historically.

I mean, thats just me looking at it from a historical point, but yeah, I think Conscripts should be reduced in manpower cost and upkeep rate.

Volksgrenadier were heavily armed and based around a core of veteran infantry. They were elite troops.

Conscripts shouldn't be on par, they should be dirt cheap and spammable. This represents the limitless pool of manpower the sovied bloc had to draw from.

Volksgrenadier were heavily armed and based around a core of veteran infantry. They were elite troops.

This is true but as far as I know they consisted mostly of:
- german air and naval forces personnel
- people that returned from hospitals
- people that were considered too old for army at early years of war

Yes, these were built around core of veterans to share experience.
And yes, they were armed better than previous standards for infantry. They had more automatic weaponry including StG and Panzerfausts.

So you may say that they had elite equipment, but users of that equipment did not had experience of units that they had, for example, at the beginning of operation Barbarossa.


On topic:

If I understand design for current Soviet doctrine choices and unit rooster correctly, for Soviets it is intended to use
Conscripts as support unit with Penals/Maxims and doctrinal infantry
OR
Conscripts as mainline infantry with PPSh doctrines

So it is intended that non-PPSh Cons suck as mainline. And I don't see how you can make them cheaper without making PPSh doctrine OP. They are already cheap enough (20mp per model).

My problem with them is that they rely on vet 3 to stay relevant. If you try to rebuild them, for example, to have access to their utility (sandbags, AT nade, PTRS with doctrine), you sign yourself for huge MP loss due to bleed despite their cheapness.

Volksgrenadier were heavily armed and based around a core of veteran infantry. They were elite troops.

Conscripts shouldn't be on par, they should be dirt cheap and spammable. This represents the limitless pool of manpower the sovied bloc had to draw from.

Volksgrenadier were not elite. Only a certain percentage of them were war veterans, the rest of the soldiers were conscripts, Volkssturm, non-combat soldiers of Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe. For example, the 79th Volksgrenadier Division: only 10% of the soldiers were veterans. The Volksgrenadier Division is still the same Grenadier Division, only with 8,000 soldiers instead 16,000 in the usual Grenadier Division. This is due to the lack of resources and transport for the provision of Divisions. To compensate for this, they given more assault rifles. Many of the Volksgrenadier were sent into battle without full training.

I like the idea of upgrading them with DPS with T4

For my input: having great vet isn't an ideal way to balance a unit if it comes as a lump at the end with no aid to get there.

Other than the Vet 1 RA bonus cons got, I agree veterancy is usually a tough way to go about it. That change was uniquely helpful because of conscripts starting target size being so high IMO.

Merging side techs and making them 150mp and 20fuel would be where I start. As others have said it's insane that the worst core infantry in the game has to pay as much as it does just to have a snare and a crappy grenade (i love Mollys, but they are shit compared to everyone else's)

No. Volks just needs to be somehow less good. Then slightly nerf bars.

Yep, that is also what I think. Making them like in CoH1. Cheap longe-range units.

Maybe removing the STG44 upgrade.

Edit: And then nerfing bars and maybe lock the Tommies for 2nd item-upgrade with the 5-men-upgrade. So you have to upgrade bevor you can equip a 2nd Bren.

Yep, that is also what I think. Making them like in CoH1. Cheap longe-range units.

Maybe removing the STG44 upgrade.

Edit: And then nerfing bars and maybe lock the Tommies for 2nd item-upgrade with the 5-men-upgrade. So you have to upgrade bevor you can equip a 2nd Bren.

They already are long range unit, since except brits bren the unit will have a better time facing the enemy from the longest ranges.

Except mp40 volks.

Having played vcoh, coh 1 volks to coh 2 okw don't make any sense, and in coh 1 volks aren't cheap long range unit. Wehrmacht in coh1 could get access to superior infantry quite soon compared to okw. Nontheless they could get mp40 and be decent cqb infantry

They already are long range unit, since except brits bren the unit will have a better time facing the enemy from the longest ranges.

Except mp40 volks.

Sure, they are. But with the STG44 upgrade (sure other stats as Sturmpio) they become something else. Why an upgrade if you can replace them with Sturmpios and Obersoldaten? I don't see the reason for the upgrade.

With Commander Volks can get a MP40 upgrade. Can be replaced by Sturmpios and Obersoldaten or call-ins.

So why the STG44 upgrade? Only because of blobbing?