re-evaluting the panther's range and HP

wow "your argument is invalid cause i don't like tha u put more 0 on the axis side" u hit a new lvl of fanboyism dude, is this the new AAA account ?

Well, that additional 0 near allied values literally serves no purpose other then visual bloating of the exact same value.

Well, that additional 0 near allied values literally serves no purpose other then visual bloating of the exact same value.

playin the strwman both of you i see, a real forum warrior

This thread's Topic is not who is fanboy, its about the Panther.

If some people spent less time trying to prove who is fanboy and who is not and more time on the actual suggestions something useful might come out of this thread.

Firesparks was actually part of the alpha teams and his contribution in the development of the game is significant. Some of his suggestions like the sticky penal satchel have actually made it into the game. His contribution is a fact, one might want to consider his own contribution before starting to throw rocks.

Firesparks was actually part of the alpha teams and his contribution in the development of the game is significant.

So we have him to blame eh?

So we have him to blame eh?

Once more, all responsibility for patches is Relic's since all decision making is Relic's, it was like that during alpha it still is like that during "community" patches.

Panther was a weird hybrid between a firefly and panzer 4. It was a sorta medium ish damage td with a movable turret that could scare off non at weapon infantry and keep armor at bay til support could arrive.

Irl the panther was Germany’s answer to the t34/86 which outgunned the panzer 4 in speed and firepower. In essence the panther is a striker/diver that goes in and holds a point keeping armor and weaker infantry at bay til support arrives.

I miss the old panther is leaned more towards at than ai but could still do damage to infantry if you were lucky.

Panzer 4 is the somewhat lightly armored ai with somewhat weak at the panthers cohort and smaller non identical twin.

========
No. IRL, the Panther was Germany's answer to the T34/76.
It was INSPIRED by the T34/76. It was meant to rape the T34/76.

The T34/85 is the Soviet Union's answer to the Panther. Thank you.

wow "your argument is invalid cause i don't like tha u put more 0 on the axis side" u hit a new lvl of fanboyism dude, is this the new AAA account ?

- No. I said "I disagree with you" and, separate topic, WTF why do you put extra 0
for exact same value on the allied side.

- I am an allied fanboi (I said that) in context to counter axis fanboism.
But in fact I just want a balanced game. I play both sides, with a preference for allied.

It's meant to be used on a context similar to "I may be an allied fanboi but in the spirit
of fairplay, I believe this and that should be buffed of the Axis".

Side note : Panthers only had god-awesome armor for 90'/270' of their total armor. Their sides
were paper-thin. COH only models front and rear armor, for a total of 180'/180'. Either add
side armor with correct values, or reduce 'better than tiger frontal armor' on the Panther.

- I don't believe STUG dmg ought to be reduced to 120.
- I believe Panther, Tiger, Heavies (Jackson 90mm) IS-2, Pershing belong in the 200 range.

- Axis crying foul of Axis super tank reduction of rear armor vs Allied heavies keeping their
rear armor - Also a valid point. I like historical values, mostly. Tiger having decent side/
rear armor while Panther having weak rear armor.

============
- I'd love a better UI explaining current chance to hit, or how the bonuses change
while standing still, while moving, and so forth. Why not? NSD44 does it. Can't be hard.
Biggest problem is people have generally no idea how game mechanics work unless they've
been on COH2.org for years.

- No. I said "I disagree with you" and, separate topic, WTF why do you put extra 0
for exact same value on the allied side.

- I am an allied fanboi (I said that) in context to counter axis fanboism.
But in fact I just want a balanced game. I play both sides, with a preference for allied.

It's meant to be used on a context similar to "I may be an allied fanboi but in the spirit
of fairplay, I believe this and that should be buffed of the Axis".

Side note : Panthers only had god-awesome armor for 90'/270' of their total armor. Their sides
were paper-thin. COH only models front and rear armor, for a total of 180'/180'. Either add
side armor with correct values, or reduce 'better than tiger frontal armor' on the Panther.

- I don't believe STUG dmg ought to be reduced to 120.
- I believe Panther, Tiger, Heavies (Jackson 90mm) IS-2, Pershing belong in the 200 range.

- Axis crying foul of Axis super tank reduction of rear armor vs Allied heavies keeping their
rear armor - Also a valid point. I like historical values, mostly. Tiger having decent side/
rear armor while Panther having weak rear armor.

============
- I'd love a better UI explaining current chance to hit, or how the bonuses change
while standing still, while moving, and so forth. Why not? NSD44 does it. Can't be hard.
Biggest problem is people have generally no idea how game mechanics work unless they've
been on COH2.org for years.

i have 0.5 dollar, u have 0.5000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
who has more ?

i have 0.5 dollar, u have 0.5000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
who has more ?

========
I am an employer.
I pay all my male employees 28.50$ per hour.
I pay all my FEMALE employees 28.5$ an hour.

This way, women pay around 33.0% of their wages as tax.
While male employees pay around 33.00% of their wages as tax.

I agree with StuG life. It's perfectly stupid.
Why does Firesparks type it differently for axis and allies??!?!

If it doesn't make a difference, why take the time to write it differently
SPECIFICALLY as it applies to one and then the other?!?!?

What I'm saying is : Why does he do that???
I never said I disagreed with him because of a typo.
It's not a typo, he does it on purpose. But why?

========
I am an employer.
I pay all my male employees 28.50$ per hour.
I pay all my FEMALE employees 28.5$ an hour.

This way, women pay around 33.0% of their wages as tax.
While male employees pay around 33.00% of their wages as tax.

I agree with StuG life. It's perfectly stupid.
Why does Firesparks type it differently for axis and allies??!?!

If it doesn't make a difference, why take the time to write it differently
SPECIFICALLY as it applies to one and then the other?!?!?

What I'm saying is : Why does he do that???
I never said I disagreed with him because of a typo.
It's not a typo, he does it on purpose. But why?

maybe he copy pasted ? i do rember the spaghetti code has a lot of incostistency (for example some tank have have no deflection damage but the multiplayer is set to 1)

========
No. IRL, the Panther was Germany's answer to the T34/76.
It was INSPIRED by the T34/76. It was meant to rape the T34/76.

The T34/85 is the Soviet Union's answer to the Panther. Thank you.

Ahhh thanks I was drink and smoking last night so I wasn’t sure even if I was correct. Thank you for the info my friend!

Well I think this is a first: Elementary school math derailing a thread to this extent.

At least in my country every single student is expected to finish fifth grade (11 y.o.) knowing that 0.5=0.500=0.50000.

2nd: Every single ordinary human being is born with he ability to learn and develop critical thinking to help pick the facts from an argument and see how possible bias might impact the way of presenting such facts in a statement.

If Alex Jones said that 5<8 and then starting a rant about chemicals in the water turning frogs gay, the first part is still an objective fact. Nothing will change the fact that 5<8 even if the person saying that is a raving conspiracy theorist.

I don't know the motivation why people want to talk about such things on a discussion about the Panther and without speculating the reasons I think the outcome is the same:

Whether by intention or by accident the effect on this thread, this site, this game and this community is mostly negative from such off topic conversations.

I hope something can be salvaged from this discussion which has been mostly of good quality but the last page has been mostly off topic thread derailing irrelevant garbage.

So mission accomplished?

(Feel free to PM me if anyone wants to discuss OP Finnish fifth graders but this is certainly not the place for an elementary school math lesson)

Well I think this is a first: Elementary school math derailing a thread to this extent.

At least in my country every single student is expected to finish fifth grade (11 y.o.) knowing that 0.5=0.500=0.50000.

2nd: Every single ordinary human being is born with he ability to learn and develop critical thinking to help pick the facts from an argument and see how possible bias might impact the way of presenting such facts in a statement.

If Alex Jones said that 5<8 and then starting a rant about chemicals in the water turning frogs gay, the first part is still an objective fact. Nothing will change the fact that 5<8 even if the person saying that is a raving conspiracy theorist.

I don't know the motivation why people want to talk about such things on a discussion about the Panther and without speculating the reasons I think the outcome is the same:

Whether by intention or by accident the effect on this thread, this site, this game and this community is mostly negative from such off topic conversations.

I hope something can be salvaged from this discussion which has been mostly of good quality but the last page has been mostly off topic thread derailing irrelevant garbage.

So mission accomplished?

(Feel free to PM me if anyone wants to discuss OP Finnish fifth graders but this is certainly not the place for an elementary school math lesson)

========================

- You are the one here not understanding.
I finally got StuG life to understand what I was saying.
Apparently you are lagging behind

I perfectly understand that 0.5=0.500=0.50000.
I fully, completely, absolutely understand the two mean the same thing.

Katitof understands.
Stug life took a moment to understand my point. He thought I disagreed because of that.
I did not. It was a separate topic.
You, however, still somehow found it possible to still misunderstand.
Something I hoped was quite obvious.

Stug Life even offered an explanation : Copy pasting from the original data
was flawed in the original source. (Inconsistant formating of data).

It was just a question, which got bloated as people thought I misunderstood.
I did not misunderstand. I simply asked a question.

I prefer the Panther to be a sniper than for it to be a brawler.
It doesn't have good accuracy-on-the-move.
It had superior optics and an amazing hypervelocity gun.

- It's range should not be nerfed.
- It's armor and HP should not be buffed.

If anything, I advocate giving it better range (50?)(Same as STUG)
and buffing it's MGs (It has 3!! Not 1 like Firefly).
I want it's damage buffed to 200. Maybe even giving it stun shot to replace Blitzkrieg.
(Blitzkrieg was a vs France and vs Barbarossa (and Greece!) tactic. Panther not used
in that role).

The Panther was created as a response to T34/76 swarms. And to eat KV1s.
I propose it be used as such. As a turreted StuIIIG with 3x MGs (3!).

But 50 Range.
- And to comments about it's speed being nerfed :
Replace Blitzkrieg with the StuG's stun shot.
And nerf the backup speed of all tanks by -66% ?

Otherwise, you can use a Kaufman retrograde. Which is partly why accuracy is so bad on the move.

NAME the Newtonian Reverse Manoeuvre - Frontier Forums - Frontier ...
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/...php/26855-NAME-the-Newtonian-Reverse-Manoeuvre
Jul 21, 2014 - 15 posts - ‎11 authors
The Kaufman Retrograde. In essence it worked best for Federation starships with a long range weapon of constant damage (the photon torpedo). Attacking ships would have to spend power on shields, weapons and engines to catch up and overpower the Feds while they flew in reverse. As with Elite it was ...

Ahhh thanks I was drink and smoking last night so I wasn’t sure even if I was correct. Thank you for the info my friend!

My pleasure!
The Panther's role was not as a 'tank' (something that moves with infantry to eat machine gun bunkers)
It's role was specifically to counter the hordes of T34/76s while still being an infantry eater.
In other words, a TD, but German style (too much armor in front, too little on sides and rear).

True, TDs shouldn't be able to do both. But it's like the STG44. It's something new and special.
Kind of like the Sherman E8. (Eats tanks and infantry).

I do not want the Panther to become a KV1 brawler.
I want it to be more of a sniper like it was in real life. Like a turreted StuG covered in MGs.

- I disagree with the Jackson becoming a brawler. It became so as a response to the German
super armored TDs (Elefant, JgTiger) The M10 also got extra health a few patches ago. But they
made it come later, as well, making it completely useless).

thanks for noticing my typo.

I would correct it but people would accuse me of editing history.

thanks for noticing my typo.

I would correct it but people would accuse me of editing history.

==================
I knew it! BIAS! Guilty as accused!!!

Ahah. I understood 0.06 and 0.060 was the same, but why write it differently??!

StuG for life gave a good explanation : You simply copy pasted off the original
stats, which themselves had the error. Why knows why it had such ? Perhaps
different person did the data entry, perhaps someone else changed the stats
during a patch, perhaps...

Didn't make sense.
StuG gave a satisfactory explanation. All is good.

I disagree with you wanting to make the Panther into a brawler.
Then Allied TD would have EVEN MORE of a reason to beat it to death.
TD > Tank. Especially since you propose to lower it's speed.
It'll just die even more.

You should not try to make the Panther into a churchill.

1) There is an issue with StuG being OP as a TD. It has to. There is nothing else above it.
2) Panther was BUILT to counter T34/76
3) Panther has hypervelocity gun with premium optics and no HE.
4) Panther has 270' paper armor and 90' godly armor.
5) That makes it into a JgPanzer wannabe. But with turret and MG.
6) Think of it more like Ez8/T34-85 (Nerfed HE, long gun)

Increase it's range to 50 (Like STUG) buff it's 3x MGs (Like T34) nerf it's HE further.
Replace Blitzkrieg with Stun shot (like StuG)(You now nerfed it's speed)

Maybe increase it's DPS (to 200)(Or increase it's ROF when stationary).
Something around making it around 75% of 2x StuIIIG.

In return, I'd be more into LOWERING it's health (960?) and nerfing it's rear armor
(Panther : Paper side and rear armor). It's already getting a free pass with it's 180'
front armor when it should be getting 90' at the most (front). There are no sides in
this game.

Results :
- Clear role.
- Slowed down.
- Can deal with Allied TDs (As well as StuIIIG)

If you want to make it into a slow brawler (which is totally everything this tank was NOT)
(It's a sniper, with insanely strong front armor)(Like Elefant) go with a non-doc Tiger.
And make the Panther doctrinal only.

It's also very silly that all tanks in this game have reverse speed equal to forward speed??

Panthers range already is 50. What range do people think it is?

Panthers range already is 50. What range do people think it is?

the fact that panthers are usually the spearhead of a push is probably why people rarely notice the range. Hence the common ignorance.

Why would you want your most armored and durable unit at the back of the line? especially since grenadiers are the most fragile line unit in the game.

the range does allow the panther to snipe at fleeing medium as they stay visible in the fow for the precious few seconds.

Ok, i can see that. However knowing the stats of units your asking for buffs for is kinda important...Especially when you are asking for a stat.