re-evaluting the panther's range and HP

during the pre-release beta of the vanilla coh2, panther had a range of 60m. this mean that the panther matched range with the su-85.

the range was eventually nerfed to its current value of 50m, but this leave the panther as a weird mix of tank destroyer and heavy tank.

as one of the most durable tech tree unit for the wehr and okw, the panther is typically used as the spearhead unit in an assault. This tactic runs counter to its advantage of having superior range over most tank in the game.

As such, the Panther tank should get a hp boost to 960 (from 800) in exchange for a range nerf to 45m. This would allow the panther to better perform as the brawler.


TL;DR: hp buff to 960, range nerf to 45m

Ostheer need an main battle tank with all purpose gun in T4. That could be the Panther or Tiger.

If it is the Panther one could have switchable AP/AT with different ranges.

Generally Panther need a clearly defined role and the tools to achieve it.

You know for the Panther to be actually good but not overbuffed from the beginning, one could give it better vet bonuses.

What about having increased armor at vet 2 to be able to deflect shots?

With the overbuffed Allied TDs the vet nerf was totally uncalled for.

You know for the Panther to be actually good but not overbuffed from the beginning, one could give it better vet bonuses.

What about having increased armor at vet 2 to be able to deflect shots?

With the overbuffed Allied TDs the vet nerf was totally uncalled for.

I have a very, very, vary hard time telling if you're trolling or not.
Tank destroyers are supposed to destroy tanks, panther is still a tank, its meant to brawl against other tanks, not tank destroyers.

I have a very, very, vary hard time telling if you're trolling or not.

Then says:

Tank destroyers are supposed to destroy tanks, panther is still a tank, its meant to brawl against other tanks, not tank destroyers.

Then says:

Just ignore him. No point discussing with him.

Best option is just switch the Tiger and panther.

You know for the Panther to be actually good but not overbuffed from the beginning, one could give it better vet bonuses.

What about having increased armor at vet 2 to be able to deflect shots?

With the overbuffed Allied TDs the vet nerf was totally uncalled for.

the vet 2 armor bonus was remove, but even then the wehr panther still have one of the best veterancy bonus in the game. The current + 20% hp at vet2 with a 960 base HP also mean the panther would have better hp and armor than a green tiger (and the tiger doesn't get any armor or HP vet bonus).

the veterancy doesn't need buff, the base unit does.

Best option is just switch the Tiger and panther.

Ostheer need an main battle tank with all purpose gun in T4. That could be the Panther or Tiger.

If it is the Panther one could have switchable AP/AT with different ranges.

Generally Panther need a clearly defined role and the tools to achieve it.

the switch would invalidate the doctrine with the tiger, as well as the panzer4. The tiger being a great generalist make it an "upgrade" over the Panther which would just be a great anti-tank brawler.

The panther's role would be to ensure the wehr and okw maintain tank superiority regardless the doctrine choice of either side. (with the exception of the is-2) The tiger would be a mainly anti-infantry boost (if you really want a great anti-everything unit) and the panzer4 retain relevancy by being the only generalist tank in the tech tree.

Ostheer need an main battle tank with all purpose gun in T4. That could be the Panther or Tiger.

If it is the Panther one could have switchable AP/AT with different ranges.

Generally Panther need a clearly defined role and the tools to achieve it.

Agreed. Since they nerfed the StuG the Wehr needs a good TD and for some reason the Soviets have 2, the SU-76 and SU-85, altho the 76 is a dual purpose unit, I don't see the problem in having the Panther be dual purpose as well then.

Being a TD and Heavy when needed, the switchable rounds would enforce that however the "omg tis too similar to another faction!!1!!!" crowd will speak up.

Agreed. Since they nerfed the StuG the Wehr needs a good TD and for some reason the Soviets have 2, the SU-76 and SU-85, altho the 76 is a dual purpose unit, I don't see the problem in having the Panther be dual purpose as well then.

Being a TD and Heavy when needed, the switchable rounds would enforce that however the "omg tis too similar to another faction!!1!!!" crowd will speak up.

(it's a repeat of what I said to shadow and vipper)

the change switch would invalidate the doctrine with the tiger, as well as the panzer4 and the brummbar. The tiger being a great generalist make it an "upgrade" over the Panther which would just be a great anti-tank brawler.

The panther's role would be to ensure the wehr and okw maintain tank superiority regardless the doctrine choice of either side. (with the exception of the is-2) The tiger would be a mainly anti-infantry boost (if you really want a great anti-everything unit) and the panzer4 retain relevancy by being the only generalist tank in the tech tree.

and the allies td have balance issue of their own. the last few patch really mess up their balance.

Part of the Problems with Ostheer is that T4 it is not worth building since it gives access only to specialized expensive vehicles that can be countered be cheaper units. Even if one manages to balance the Panther if going T4 is not worth it, people will still relay on tiger.

When allied Tds had trouble dealing with Panther at least it worked as break thru vehicle, currently it can not.

T4 needs to provide a premium main battle tank, or a reshuffle of unit is needed. Like moving Osthwind to T4 and Brumbar or PW in T3.

As long as Tiger is doctrinal it does not come into balance since it can be balanced separately.

Or allied simply should not use KT as the benchmark of their performance, so that Ostheer T4 unit become cost efficient again.

Part of the Problems with Ostheer is that T4 it is not worth building since it gives access only to specialized expensive vehicles that can be countered be cheaper units. Even if one manages to balance the Panther if going T4 is not worth it, people will still relay on tiger.

When allied Tds had trouble dealing with Panther at least it worked as break thru vehicle, currently it can not.

T4 needs to provide a premium main battle tank, or a reshuffle of unit is needed. Like moving Osthwind to T4 and Brumbar or PW in T3.

As long as Tiger is doctrinal it does not come into balance since it can be balanced separately.

Or allied simply should not use KT as the benchmark of their performance, so that Ostheer T4 unit become cost efficient again.

simply ignoring the Giant man eating tiger is not going to work as long as it's there.


panzer4 - generalist tank
panther - tank hunter
brummbar - flak casemate howitzer tank
ostwind - infantry tank
stug - casemate tank destroyer (should be 60m range really)
panzerwerfer - rocket artillery

This means that each unit in the Wehr tank arsenal doesn't step on each other's toe.

Secondly, the panther doesn't need to have HE. The faction itself already have plenty of option in between the brummbar, ostwind, and the panzer.

Instead of relying on one single unit to do everything, restricting the panther to being the gold standard of tank hunter means the other units still have role to fill-full.

Infact, anti-infantry firepower is really the last thing the wehr is in need of. Their arsenal of support weapons are the best in the game.

The wehr 's Achilles' heel is durability and maneuverability. The panther sitting at the end of the tech tree having durability and maneuverability basically serve as the linchpin of the wehr army, doing what the 4 men grenadier and support weapon can not.

Panther suffers from retarded desing and all resent changes. Pather is pretty much the single unit in cattegory of "mediut tank destoyer".

All other TDs has either penetration\damage\RoF or abilities which makes them usefull with a trade off having low HP\Armor but non of other TDs requre you to actually get into close combat.

Pather has non of other TDs advantages, which can scare off mediums\other tanks, neither because of damage\RoF\Range.

Resent armor nerfs and buffs of other TDs put pathers in the role of any non-TD tank when it comes to fighting TDs i.m. flanking.

Then comes second problem, all other mediums which has to flank TDs to fight them, also have AI capabilities to not only fight this TD but also fight possible supporting units, preventing being snared\killed by AT gun.

Pather has no AI capabilies (and I will wipe my ass with aurgument that it has 3 MGs, in a real scenarion only hull MG would be fighing most of the time).

This leaves with tank, which cant:
1) scare off mediums just by defending something (well because 160 damage gives you prenty of time to retreat)
2) at least somehow protect itself from any inf based support, like all other mediums
3) it wont perform as good as other TDs (damage+rof)
4) its armor is irrelevant when attacking TDs frontally, due to penetration buffs
5) When it comes to flanking assaults it perfoms just like any other medium tank, since most of the times mediums would penetrate other TDs anyway, when flanked.
6) Price, means that most of the time it would fight at least 2 tanks or second enemy tank would be on the way

So at this point what are advantages of pather:
1) Health ... so so advantage, since this additional health at least somehow compensating fact that it cant protect itself what so ever
2) In situation when you have 2 fuel point or you denyed fuel from opponent and you managed to get pather at the same time your opponent is getting his fist tank, you possibly would have massive advantage
3) Better then PIV at penetrating rear armor of heavies.
4) If you have established tank army, it could be nice finishing move if you dont have heavy tank to call-in
5) Have compleate upperhand when fighting mediums (aside from T34\85), but all 3 allied faction can get themselfs TDs at this point, its just a matter of resources, they are not split into different tiers.

Aside from thouse 5 advantage I cant find really any reason why you should even thinking of getting it really. It performs really bad in comparasent to almost any other options and counterparts, and fails as both AI and TD and middle ground tank.

So my opinion is that whole design of it need to be redone. Make it weaker version of Comet or simply make it cheaper, so at least you would be able to do tank raids with 2 panthers and it wont be luxery avaible only for oil Sultans

Id say the panther should be altered more into a brawler/diver but since it has such low moving accuracy it cant do that role.

Have moving accuracy increases to e8 levels would be nice along with a better ROF as it suffers from being out DPSed due to how low its ROF is, in turn its range would be decreased to 45

All the panther itself ever needed was reliable accuracy in some form. Either from vet, or by having good accuracy at a certain range, or on the move were all reasonable and effective ways at doing this.

The vet 2 armor bonus could've just changed to accuracy: a simple enough change that would've done the trick.

But all this said, this would not have really solved the issues with Ostheer's teching and the durability of its roster in the lategame. Although it would've fixed a unit that otherwise contributed to this very problem. However in my opinion something a little more drastic would've been necessary for Ostheer to get in line with the WFA/British/PatchedSoviet factions. (And that, of course, is at least 2 and a half years too late.)

All the panther itself ever needed was reliable accuracy in some form. Either from vet, or by having good accuracy at a certain range, or on the move were all reasonable and effective ways at doing this.

The vet 2 armor bonus could've just changed to accuracy: a simple enough change that would've done the trick.

But all this said, this would not have really solved the issues with Ostheer's teching and the durability of its roster in the lategame. Although it would've fixed a unit that otherwise contributed to this very problem. However in my opinion something a little more drastic would've been necessary for Ostheer to get in line with the WFA/British/PatchedSoviet factions. (And that, of course, is at least 2 and a half years too late.)

the panther's gun have an accuracy of .03-.06, which is actually already higher than the "average" of .025-.05 for most tank gun.

Tank destroyer have .04-.06 but that's a different story.

Id say the panther should be altered more into a brawler/diver but since it has such low moving accuracy it cant do that role.

Have moving accuracy increases to e8 levels would be nice along with a better ROF as it suffers from being out DPSed due to how low its ROF is, in turn its range would be decreased to 45

having a high moving accuracy modifier is not a requirement for being a brawler tank.

The US sherman are the only units to have the .75 modifier, everyone else have .50 modifier.
The british comet and cromwell used to have .75 modifier but eventually nerfed down to .50. (FF does have .55 but this is splitting hair.)


The obsession at destroying enemy tank is also part of the problem. The high accuracy on tank destroyer make it harder to disengage. AtG have .04-.06 because they are mobile.

simply ignoring the Giant man eating tiger is not going to work as long as it's there.


panzer4 - generalist tank
panther - tank hunter
brummbar - flak casemate howitzer tank
ostwind - infantry tank
stug - casemate tank destroyer (should be 60m range really)
panzerwerfer - rocket artillery

This means that each unit in the Wehr tank arsenal doesn't step on each other's toe.
...

That does not mean much.
Panther vs stug, 2 stug are more cost efficient than a Panther.
Brummbad vs Panzerwerfer both indirect fire AI units in the same tech building.

Once more T4 in most cases is imply not worth it since it provides only specialized expensive units that their high cost is mostly justified by their high armor that does not really provide much protection.

In most cases Tiger is better choice limiting the strategies and commander available to Ostheer.

In addition allied TDs are simply OP.

All other faction have been buffed leaving Ostheer, the best designed faction actually, with units that should serve as benchmark for the other units, with a rigid linear system to depend on 2-3 OP units (sniper, mortar, stug) and a number of OP abilities like g43, tiger, stuka.

No matter how you balance the Panther if T4 is simply not worth it, little will change.

In the current balance situation I would rather have a Panther with 230 frontal armor that cost 140 fuel.

(it's a repeat of what I said to shadow and vipper)

the change switch would invalidate the doctrine with the tiger, as well as the panzer4 and the brummbar. The tiger being a great generalist make it an "upgrade" over the Panther which would just be a great anti-tank brawler.

The panther's role would be to ensure the wehr and okw maintain tank superiority regardless the doctrine choice of either side. (with the exception of the is-2) The tiger would be a mainly anti-infantry boost (if you really want a great anti-everything unit) and the panzer4 retain relevancy by being the only generalist tank in the tech tree.

and the allies td have balance issue of their own. the last few patch really mess up their balance.

The Tiger is already invalidated because it's an overpriced piece of shit and has been for a long time now.

I'd speak my mind more but I'll probably get called out by Katitof like always or get labeled an Axis fanboy.

The Tiger is already invalidated because it's an overpriced piece of shit and has been for a long time now.

I'd speak my mind more but I'll probably get called out by Katitof like always or get labeled an Axis fanboy.

You're a comp stomper who fails to succeed with Tiger.

I don't need to label you as anything.

I have a very, very, vary hard time telling if you're trolling or not.
Tank destroyers are supposed to destroy tanks, panther is still a tank, its meant to brawl against other tanks, not tank destroyers.

He posted it on 1st of April