[DBP] Mechanized Doctrine feedback thread

Intent of the changes

The intent of the changes was to make the doctrine feel like a mechanized vehicle-heavy doctrine. Different vehicles at different phases in the game can be used to anchor your army around. Hopefully, the addition of the mortarHT and M3 changes will also help to keep the army mobile at all times.

M3 Halftrack

The intent of M3 changes is to allow the M3 to supplant the Ambluance in a more aggressive role. Whereas the Ambulance heals slowly but in an aura, Medcrates heal as fast as HQ/Bunker medics, which means that individual squads will be back in action sooner.

That, combined with the high mobility and high durability of the M3 HT will hopefully allow players to play more aggressively.

M21 mortar halftrack

The changes will allow the M21 half-track to integrate more seamlessly with USF builds, and also allow it to launch smoke and support barrages non-stop.

Of notable mention is that the M21 mortar halftrack still uses the pre-nerf USF 81mm mortar. Thus, we'll have to possibly clip its autoattack and, potentially, its HE.

WC-51 dodge

WC-51 dodge had no role in the battlefield except for an expensive kubel-hunter that withdraws from the battlefield once the job is done. With the removal of Withdraw and Refit and changes to the Kubel, the unit needed a redefined role.

Early game it is meant to act as a transport unit. Later on, it can transition to a fire-support harassment role (with a very powerful MG). Later in the game, the unit transitions to a cheap scout and forward-observer role with powerful support abilities.

Unfortunately, due to a bug, the artillery strike will not always trigger.

Raid tactics

The intent of this ability is to tie the entire doctrine together. The high-abundance of light-vehicles can be used to gobble up territory, and infantry can be used to take the lead and provide vision for a late-army composition later in the game.

76mm Sherman

This is mostly for flavor. This one allows USF to summon AT-oriented shermans that act as an in-between for 75mm Shermans and Jacksons.

Bulldozer upgrade

This upgrade allows Shermans to survive double-pak/rak walls and give the doctrine a lategame meatshield unit.

I like the changes in the commander but I think a few changes are needed.

1. M3 halftrack should spawn with cavalry rifles. It fits better with the scheme and gives new infantry units to usf to encourage combined arms.

2. I would remove the mortar halftrack is too much of callins and would make infantry doctrine less often picked. Replace for something else.

3. 76 mm sherman or bulldozer upgrade seem good idea. Haven't tested enough to know which change is better yet.

4. WC51 too cheap for how it performs. OKW struggling to counter it.

Wc51 changes are heavenly.

The m3 comes out at just the right time, health of it might need a slight buff to make it hold up better.

Raid tactics is a nice idea.

Mortar HT is fits well and makes you choose AT/zooks or good mobile mortar.

Sherman bulldozer is a good upgrade, might wanna swap out health for armor. Could be interesting.

76 Sherman Is a good idea, unit seemed to miss a lot at close range and also didn't feel as effective Vs infantry in comparison to ez8 gun. Not sure if intended

Loving it over all, flexible, chaotic and fun is just what the doctor ordered. The only issue I have is the OKW struggles against the new WC51 in a way reminiscent of live Kubel vs USF. Giving it a build time or starting the ability on cooldown would probably be enough to curb the issue sufficiently.

I like all the changes except the M3 assault group seems kind of pointless. Assault engineers are pretty weak and with demo charges being nerfed a lot, they don't look very appealing. If you wanted AEs, you would just go Armor Company. The M3 is also not that appealing as, you might as well just get the ambulance because you can get it quicker and heal without the micro.

Could you explain what does it mean that I will be able to survive double pak wall? I mean, extra HP, aye? But how much? Just to survive, or maybe 160? 200? 340?

The sherman bulldozer upgrade adds 80hp. So you will survive 4 pak/p4/panther hits with a sliver of health, but almost any extra damage (notably including a faust) will kill you.

Why would you need to consider nerfing the M21? It's not even in the same situation as the T0 Mortar, it's doctrinal and it costs fuel. At 2 CP it should be able to perform at the level of the other normal mortars while the M1 is early game only.

I like the changes in the commander but I think a few changes are needed.

1. M3 halftrack should spawn with cavalry rifles. It fits better with the scheme and gives new infantry units to usf to encourage combined arms.

2. I would remove the mortar halftrack is too much of callins and would make infantry doctrine less often picked. Replace for something else.

3. 76 mm sherman or bulldozer upgrade seem good idea. Haven't tested enough to know which change is better yet.

4. WC51 too cheap for how it performs. OKW struggling to counter it.

I think this pretty much sums up most people's opinions.

The Arty barrage being added back wouldn't be too bad either if you ask me but that's just my own opinion.

do mechanized and recon support share the raid ability? I dont own mechanized and cant check.

I like the wc51 is a designated troop transport, it seems it like it could lead to some interesting tactics but it dies so easily it's dangerous to use close to the enemy.

I think the truck being 200 mp for a transport and another 60 munitions is too high. By time you might have 2 Jeeps with the mg upgrade they're nearly obsolete due to all the other AT and enemy units on the field. Also you won't have those 120 munitions to use on grenades and other weapons. Then the raid ability costs munitions which overall leaves a munition starved opening.

I don't really care for the raid ability considering us vehicles can capture territory anyway by leaving the vehicle. I almost never going myself using the ability even if it does give infantry a small buff.

The mortar halftrack seems ok but when coupled with the the m3 halftrack they just seemed to clash as both come at about the same time and you'll have to choose between the 2 out set yourself back in fuel. Furthermore the us doesn't need the halftrack to transport troops since they have the Jeep. The ambulance does the same thing as the m3 but for cheaper.

76mm Sherman seemed good i didn't get to try the bulldozer upgrade but I'm glad it came back from the original coh. It's nice to have something to clear obstacles/hedges.

Overall i think the Jeep and mg should be cheaper. Maybe 150mp and 35 munitions? I think the m3 should be taken out as well as the raid ability. I think the retrofit ability should be added back with a slight buff to it's resource refund. Maybe give a vehicle speed boost like the encirclement commander has.

Also prioritize vehicles in the 76mm Sherman wasn't working for me. They continued to attack infantry.

make the 76mm an upgrade for pen and/or reload/accuracy and cant switch to HE shells
or give them the easy8

I honestly would prefer to just get rid of the assault engineers to make the half track cheaper. By the time it gets unlocked you have a officer and generally three or so Rifles. Other wise it is a fun, interesting commander now.

I sort of wish that it was the m5 halftrack (the one that can get the quad machine gun upgrade).

M3 Halftrack

The unit feels better than the live version, better DPS and more survivability. The cost decrease is indeed great. The problem is the AS squad inside that have close to zero purpose the moment its hit the field.
IMO calling it empty is enough, with a price decrease.

M21 mortar halftrack

If I was asking for the mortar HT previously, it wasn't at the cost of the Arty call. The unit is good but I think there is too much call-in in the doctrine now. Or keep it and remove the Sherman 76mm or remove it.

WC-51 dodge

The unit is great, I guess you can set back its initial MP price to 240 and maybe reduce the MG upgrade to 40mu. So it increase the windows time you can use it aggressively while making the USF player taking a bigger decision early game to call a non combative unit.
The unit have a far better responsivness and the HMG upgrade is far better than the live version. you can keep the jeep behind your squad for maximum support fire.

Be careful with the 155 artillery call, this is a powerful ability and I'm not sure if it should be available before CP08. With it on the jeep, as soon as you have 180 munitions you can call it...

Raid tactics

I have mixed feeling about it, you can already cap point with vehicle as USF but it is great for your infantry.

76mm Sherman

I would recommand to remove it and buff the upgrade the sherman recieves. (see below)

Bulldozer upgrade

Great but not enough. Make it more expansive and giving more life and more HP like 100 HP and 80 armor for 120 munitions and make this option only available after building all tiers. So USF get another Pershing like unit option for the late game. (I'm not sure if it is possible to make it unique)

Commander really needs a muni sink. Its design isn't really based on light vehicles whatsoever anymore, so Raid should get replaced by Combined Arms.

do mechanized and recon support share the raid ability? I dont own mechanized and cant check.

yes

Intent of the changes



M21 mortar halftrack

The changes will allow the M21 half-track to integrate more seamlessly with USF builds, and also allow it to launch smoke and support barrages non-stop.

Of notable mention is that the M21 mortar halftrack still uses the pre-nerf USF 81mm mortar. Thus, we'll have to possibly clip its autoattack and, potentially, its HE.

The M21 and 81mm mortar gained vet at very different rates. The current 81mm is garbage. If you nerf the M21 to match it, it will be worse than useless. You'll be adding a useless ability to a reworked commander.

The M21 is harder to vet because it is vulnerable to fausts/paks/diving tanks. It works best against Ost if they go really heavy on weapons teams.

If a M21 does reach vet 3, it is really good but I'd bet it doesn't happen that often. If it needs nerfing, then the Ost 81mm mortar needs nerfing also.

I think there is too much call-in in the doctrine now.
Or remove M21 or remove the Sherman 76mm.

I don't see something fundamentally wrong with a doctrine having access to a lot of call-in units as long as:
- it doesn't force you to use all of them (i.e., leaves it up to you to decide which tools are right for which occasion)
- the doctrine doesn't provide you with an easy-mode cookie-cutter buildorder you can use to stranglehold your opponent

The first one means that a doctrine has sufficiently enough depth to allow you to use it in multiple ways (as opposed to, say, Lightning War). The second objective means that players that have to counter said doctrine won't be hating themselves if they have to play against it every single time (as opposed to live-version Penal-Lend-lease or Mechanised Assault of yesteryear).

Having played the doctrine a lot more, the weakest link appears to be the M3-AssEng bundle, in that it forces you to have both, when you only want one of them.

Perhaps the best way to resolve this one is make M3 appear empty, and give the M3 an ability to call-in Assault Engineers at full price if you want to have an AssEng (or if you want to buy replacements).

That's because for most of the maps you would really want to use M3 halftracks (i.e., open maps) you don't really need AssEng, and for the kind of maps you want to use AssEng, you really don't want duplicate M3's all the damn time.

As for the M21 MHT I would still build at least 1 of them; especially vs campy players, even if autoattack was completely removed. This is due to the sheer utility that a separate cooldown on smoke barrage gives you, which allows you to double up with White Phosphorus shells or a normal barrage.