The problem with FHQs/ forward retreat

Hello there,

has been a few months alrdy since I posted in these forums, but I have some thoughts about FHQs since a long time alrdy which I did not really share so far, thus I would appreciate your feedback on it.

But first of all I wanna explain why FHQs in the current state are a "problem" imo. They tremendously increase the advantage of OKW, UKF and USF in both pushing and defensive actions, compared to Wehrmacht and SU.

While the pushing bonus imo is reasonable for these factions (since they are designed and commonly understood as "agressive" factions; additionally, the "forward retreat" upgrade is an extra mp investment and therefore doesn't need a nerf ), the advantage in puncto defending is over the top. Cos that often leads to situations like

- being unable to kill a support gun crew parked next to a FHQ (e. g. with sniper) or

- being unable to kill vetted OKW inf parking next to a FHQ with any of your own squads as another example

since they are able to cheaply reinforce faster than you are able to kill them. The power of FHQs wouldn't be a thing if it would just be a late game thing, but all 3 mentioned factions are able to to get them so damn early already.

This makes pushing especially in early to mid game often completely impossible if the enemy just digs in with sandbag spam etc. next to a FHQ, often leaving no other choice than indirect fire spam in order to destroy the FHQ asap...

So I came up with an idea ( just a thought), be honest what you think about it:

Every single infantry squad and support gun crew (from all 5 factions) is no longer able to reinforce through reinforce half-tracks, UKF FHQ, Soviet FHQ (from Soviet "Urban defense doctrine"), USF ambulance, OKW med truck and Wehrmacht reinforce bunker while in combat

This does not apply to any main HQ base structures (such as barracks) since this would make certain "base-diving" strats too powerful

Imo this would move FHQs in team games into a perfect spot without over-nerfing them, since they are a huge manpower investment.

I don't think that I am a "pro" or anything, tell me if you think my idea is straight garbage

I think it would be enough just deleting the retreat point for all factions, and letting those units (ambulances, forward HQ, Medic truck) a soft retreat point in where you have to go manually. Here is the risk, if you push too much as OKW that you need to retreat (back to base) , your medic HQ would be exposed to the enemy as you have to come back from your base.

That'd solve the balance on some maps and even in 3v3,4v4 games. People will mind where do they set their trucks/ambulances, etc.

I don't see a reason to stop reinforce while in combat.

I think the Soviet forward headquarters should have a retreat point.

One could allow FRW points only in sector adjust to Base sectors. That would still make them useful but not op.

I think it would be enough just deleting the retreat point for all factions, and letting those units (ambulances, forward HQ, Medic truck) a soft retreat point in where you have to go manually. Here is the risk, if you push too much as OKW that you need to retreat (back to base) , your medic HQ would be exposed to the enemy as you have to come back from your base.

That'd solve the balance on some maps and even in 3v3,4v4 games. People will mind where do they set their trucks/ambulances, etc.

I don't see a reason to stop reinforce while in combat.

Yeah I think this instead would be a good change too

Sign me up. FRP have imo really negatively impacted the game. I DO play almost exclusively team games but even then if you end up with more EFA than the enemy you are already disadvantaged

Perfect idea

I like OP idea as well as removing FRPs in general so people learn how to soft retreat.

While we're at it remove some of the massive 4v4 maps that make infantry battles happen only once in a blue moon without FRPs.

I remember the 1st time I played vs OKW, I didn´t know shit about the game so I see that FRP truck and then go to decap the area where it was sitting thinking it would disable the reinforce function... How newbe I was...

Disabling reinforcement while in combat is an interesting idea but also means the end of Oshteer half-track play. Why would you build a half-track? while would you build a command bunker as Ostheer? unless other faction Ostheer only have 4men squads, you can't really soft retreat that much to your safe point.

If you manage to close the distance to the USF ambulance, the unit should already be your first target thus disabling reinforcement. So your solution isn´t relevant for the USF.
In some extend all half-track and bunker, the solution is quite simple, those units are squishy and disappear in a matter of seconds if you focus them.

The biggest offenders are the OKW and Soviet FRP. those two are simply too durable.

1- By applying your solution you´ll considerably buff USF since you already never put your ambulance on the front line. The ambulance is mobile, can be repositioned on a safe location and the major just help with the rally point, so no need to soft retreat.

2- The problem isn´t FRP but their durability. there is a huge different between a Soviet FRP on concret building and a Soviet FRP on a wood one...
A way to nerf them is simply to disable their function if the territory they´re sitting on comes neutral. You could apply this logic to all bunker and half-track but here again Oshteer would be the biggest looser with its half-track specially design for this.


3- Another solution could be to x2 all reinforcement time if not from the HQ.

and there will be the time to use HT to reinforce on the field. Importance of HMGs and mines.

OKW could get reinforce from IR Half Track (if needed)

I remember the 1st time I played vs OKW, I didn´t know shit about the game so I see that FRP truck and then go to decap the area where it was sitting thinking it would disable the reinforce function... How newbe I was...

Disabling reinforcement while in combat is an interesting idea but also means the end of Oshteer half-track play. Why would you build a half-track? while would you build a command bunker as Ostheer? unless other faction Ostheer only have 4men squads, you can't really soft retreat that much to your safe point.

If you manage to close the distance to the USF ambulance, the unit should already be your first target thus disabling reinforcement. So your solution isn´t relevant for the USF.
In some extend all half-track and bunker, the solution is quite simple, those units are squishy and disappear in a matter of seconds if you focus them.

The biggest offenders are the OKW and Soviet FRP. those two are simply too durable.

1- By applying your solution you´ll considerably buff USF since you already never put your ambulance on the front line. The ambulance is mobile, can be repositioned on a safe location and the major just help with the rally point, so no need to soft retreat.

2- The problem isn´t FRP but their durability. there is a huge different between a Soviet FRP on concret building and a Soviet FRP on a wood one...
A way to nerf them is simply to disable their function if the territory they´re sitting on comes neutral. You could apply this logic to all bunker and half-track but here again Oshteer would be the biggest looser with its half-track specially design for this.


3- Another solution could be to x2 all reinforcement time if not from the HQ.

Nope, the "you cant reinforce if the territory is being de-capped" isnt enough for a nerf. The UKF FHQ already has that and still.. you can just build the FHQ near to the point and 100% make sure nobody will be able to de-cap.

What you said about USF is "kinda" true, but most ppl put their ambulance behind a shot- or sightblocker anyway if they use it on the front.

About 251 from Wehr: 90% of the ppl use this unit exclusively for the flamer upgrade

Maybe we should rework FHQ so that you have to pay some kind of resource (lets say 30 munitions) to "enable" FRP for let's say 20 seconds, so units can retreat to FHQ, but after 20 sec you have to wait cooldown?

Is it possible to just have the FHQ have a standard health? So no matter where you throw it it burns down just as fast no matter where it is. Buff and a nerf but normalized might be all it needs

Even though I like your idea I think that forward retreat should be completely abolished to stop the grindy nature of 2v2+ games (looking at double OKW especially). You should be indeed punished if you lose engagements, thus map control and not be able to return to the front with full health in half time or less than EFA factions. Forward retreat points promote careless play and do totally not fit CoH2.

Yeap.

Remove FRP

Decrease repair speed to Wermacht/Sov.

I think thats it.


No need to balance anything else.

3) OKW's Battlegroup Headquarters (Tier 2) :

1) Citation from an CoH2's Guide: "Behind a shot blocker and near the front line is a great choice." It combine a toggle forward retreat point with a healing station. This help Axis (OKW) to stay closer to the critical spots a lot faster then anybody else. Add the fact that OKW weapons upgrade are made on the fly... And all problematic factors are non doctrinal.

Full post here :
https://www.coh2.org/topic/60182/okw-s-early-game-over-dominance/page/2

I abstained. remove FRP.

I like the idea, but i would want the ability to queue the reinforcement, so I don't have to constantly micromanage because the unit is under attack or otherwise engaging something.

FRP is useful in come cases, just because it's not in a 1v1 doesn't mean it should be deleted. IMO everyone should have it some way or another.

For those that won';t tolerate my views, then consider a checkbox option like they did with coldtech.

I think it would be enough just deleting the retreat point for all factions, and letting those units (ambulances, forward HQ, Medic truck) a soft retreat point in where you have to go manually. Here is the risk, if you push too much as OKW that you need to retreat (back to base) , your medic HQ would be exposed to the enemy as you have to come back from your base.

This. But sov ans usf (until major comes) soft retreats now anyway, so such implementation would feel much like okw and ukf nerf. So it's better not to touch what isn't broken (hmm) if only not remove it at a whole.
As for me, I struggle much more vs digged in wehr with med bunkers then okw or ukf with FRP.

forward points need nerf, halftracks don't.