Redesign Penal battalions

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2017, 11:19 AM__deleted__

I don´t want to see clown car with ppsh squad inside at 0 minute mark

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2017, 11:54 AMVipper

That is a different issue:
Infantry garrisoning m3 being able to fire is inconstancy that needs to be fixed. Fuel price should be dropped to 0 and unit inside the m3 not able to fire.

An upgrade for units being able to fire from m3 could be available.

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2017, 12:05 PM__deleted__

I don´t know. First we´ll have to focus on fixing conscripts and call ins problem (infantry and tanks alike), before we move to "more cosmetical issues"

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2017, 11:03 AMVipper

This changes will
1) Allow Soviet to delay doctrine choice and still have access to elite infantry via Penal.
2) Allow conscripts and Penal to work together as defensive offensive infantry.
3) Offer better historical feel with Penal being an expendable infantry capable of becoming elite like the Soviet 16th Army.


(some changes will be needed for conscripts but I can explain those later)

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2017, 22:52 PMImagelessbean

Maybe I missed it, but what is wrong with Penals right now? They perform very good AI and can be upgraded to help deal with armor.

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2017, 22:27 PMnee

Problem is that it doesn't so much delay doctrinal choice but risk making them irrelevant. Penal Ppsh means no point choosing Conscript Ppsh package and Shock Troops, in the same way Penal PTRS replaces Guards.
Penals have a complicate history that's more than mere human wave expendable infantry consisting of thugs; not like historical accuracy matters anyways.

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2017, 23:36 PMfrostbite

penals are fine how they are. they already been nerfed to a balanced spot

Jump back to quoted post9 May 2017, 07:07 AMVipper

Conscripts could easily have their PPsh upgrade replaced with 6 toned SVT improving their performance where their are designed to fight mid. Mixing Smg and bolt action rifles is bad design. The difference with Shock troops is substantial since they would be cheap and expendable instead of tough and expensive.

Jump back to quoted post9 May 2017, 08:10 AMnee

But you still just have Conscripts = Penals, and Penals =Shocks/ Guards. You make doctrinal units redundant entirely.
Conscripts getting SVTs is even less of what you get when you just train vanilla Penals. Conscripts are basically there for doctrinal stuff, AT grenades and Merge.

Though to be fair that's pretty much how it can only go, without actually redesigning Guards and Shocks.

The better idea is to try to improve Conscripts without making them Penals 2.0, or ersatz Shocks. We already have that with Penal PTRS

Jump back to quoted post8 May 2017, 22:52 PMImagelessbean

Maybe I missed it, but what is wrong with Penals right now? They perform very good AI and can be upgraded to help deal with armor.

What you are offering is to make T1 a downgraded conscript, that eventually allows you to get better scripts. However, you will lose by then. Going T1 gives up map control and you have to fight to regain it. Making the squad that fights worse is only going to steam roll into complete map loss.

Jump back to quoted post10 May 2017, 05:58 AM__deleted__

+1

The 20 seconds tier1 build time is big setback on itself. You literaly give your enemy 20 seconds of opportunity, to get key locations/buildings/cap. That´s the main reason why many players are going 3 engi into tier 1 right now - to save time and get those key positions

Jump back to quoted post10 May 2017, 07:39 AMMaret

Another problem is nerfed maxim in T2. Earlier if you build T2, you had maxims and cons, but now you have "bad" HMG and bad cons. T2 now need only for AT and mortars. This another reason so high popularity of T1 and lend lease commander.