Redesign Penal battalions

Without reworked conscripts is no way to rework penals, because now no one soviet don't build conscripts. Penals comparison to conscripts looking very good. Conscripts right now is only selfguided AT grenade and nothing else (i even can't remember when i last time saw molotols....). Right way - rework conscripts and only THEN rework penals looking on new conscripts.

Actually conscript are not that bad since they have not received buff or nerf for a long time. It the VG, Riflemen and Tommies that are OP and need to be nerfed. As I have explained infantry that are available before minute 1 should be re balanced as they where in September patch with "weapon profiles" and "relative positioning" in mind.

Idea behind the suggestion is that Conscript should become more defensive oriented and Penal should become cheap and more aggressive oriented. Giving the option to upgrade them to elite infantry would allow to remain relevant in late game.

Actually conscript are not that bad since they have not received buff or nerf for a long time. It the VG, Riflemen and Tommies that are OP and need to be nerfed. As I have explained infantry that are available before minute 1 should be re balanced as they where in September patch with "weapon profiles" and "relative positioning" in mind.

Idea behind the suggestion is that Conscript should become more defensive oriented and Penal should become cheap and more aggressive oriented. Giving the option to upgrade them to elite infantry would allow to remain relevant in late game.

Main trouble with cons that now they looking as osttrupens with Merge ability and slightly better stats.
I prefer another way for cons, give them ability to upgrade to elite infantry (if you choose commander with elite infantry, you get discount on certain type of elite infantry upgrade) and make penals more specialized infantry squad. Because right now i don't see how give soviets CORE infantry. Defensive infantry are osttrupens, they cheap as dirt and have snare, all that need for defense. To prevent earlier spam of elite infantry, 2 CP will stay. Because if you give penals ability to upgrade, that make them CORE infantry, not conscipts and only will do situation more worse. Who need cons if you have penals that can switch to elite squad?

The safest possible buff for conscripts is to make molotov throw faster.

Make it throw instantly (i.e. responsively) but with a slow projectile, giving people time to dodge.

The safest possible buff for conscripts is to make molotov throw faster.

Even if you make faster molotov this not change overall situation. Main trouble with cons not slow molotov. It's their overall effectiveness. They don't have any stock upgrades for weapon (all other nations have), they have very weak late game scale (other infantry stay potent, especially penals in comparison to cons). They dies as flies and have only 2 good abilities "Merge" (that good working with T2 opening, but with currently T2 effectiveness..) and "Snare". They lost their place in soviet gameplay.

Right now OST with osttrupen opening and MG-42 looking as old soviet style gameplay. You have cheap infantry and good HMG (you could call it "old maxim").

Again the problem is not Conscripts themselves the problem is that other infantry are OP. High lethality make fight more RNG and less tactical.

The WFA armies should be toned down to EFA levels and not the other way round.

Again the problem is not Conscripts themselves the problem is that other infantry are OP. High lethality make fight more RNG and less tactical.

The WFA armies should be toned down to EFA levels and not the other way round.

Easiest way is rework cons not tone down all other WFA infantry. What work is easieast - with 1 object or with 3 different? If you tone down WFA infantry, it's not change situation with weapon upgrades. If cons will be strong as WFA infantry it will be huge disbalance, because you will need STG upgrades to deal with cons. And after that you will be must to work with ALL infantry in game....Dead loop.

And don't forget about penals and soviet elite infantry. With toned down WFA infantry they will be looking as gods in comparison to them.

Off Topic:
And that is one of the issues with Ostheer who have waste time to build T1 to get a mainline infantry or built 2 pioneers.

On the other hand that does not change the fact that Penal are the strongest infantry in their time frame and the problems that derive from that.

Or build mg42 to not waste any build time ? (except for pios of course)

And buildig cons for soviet isnt an option. They will only be setback later. Cons are so useless right now

Easiest way is rework cons not tone down all other WFA infantry. What work is easieast - with 1 object or with 3 different? If you tone down WFA infantry, it's not change situation with weapon upgrades. If cons will be strong as WFA infantry it will be huge disbalance, because you will need STG upgrades to deal with cons. And after that you will be must to work with ALL infantry in game....Dead loop.

And don't forget about penals and soviet elite infantry. With toned down WFA infantry they will be looking as gods in comparison to them.

No it is not. As I have explained high lethality means that fight last very little time and more RNG than tactical. If for instance assault infantry lose half their models on approach they become useless.

On the September patch small arm fire where about balanced and only small adjustment where needed after that:
1) Tommies where introduced
2) Penal had their far DPS doubled
3) VG got the weird MP44
4) Riflemen got a T0 mortar

all this destroyed the infantry balance. The way to is nerf upgunned VG, riflemen, Tommies and Penals.

In addition Soviet have some design in mind that leaves room for Penal/conscripts and Elite infantry and that is what is suggested here.

Or build mg42 to not waste any build time ? (except for pios of course)

And buildig cons for soviet isnt an option. They will only be setback later. Cons are so useless right now

According to you conscripts are useless but they saw allot of action in the tournament where Soviets did above average.

According to Mr.Smith (and the Top players) it Penal that is not worth building.

The problem lies with other infantry and not with Conscripts.

Again the problem is not Conscripts themselves the problem is that other infantry are OP. High lethality make fight more RNG and less tactical.

The WFA armies should be toned down to EFA levels and not the other way round.

OK and then what do we do with the balance?

On the September patch small arm fire where about balanced and only small adjustment where needed after that:
1) Tommies where introduced
2) Penal had their far DPS doubled
3) VG got the weird MP44
4) Riflemen got a T0 mortar

all this destroyed the infantry balance. The way to is nerf upgunned VG, riflemen, Tommies and Penals.

In addition Soviet have some design in mind that leaves room for Penal/conscripts and Elite infantry and that is what is suggested here.

Yea, what we trully need is overall nerf of ALL non soviet infantry in game? Are you kidding? Don't forget, if you toned down WFA infantry it will change balanve not only to soviet side but to OST too. After OST grenadiers will start shreding all WFA infantry on pieces, we will see tons of threads with whine about how grenadiers and PG are OP. This why we need to find right place to cons and penals in game and don't ever touch WFA and OST. Or it's create dead loop when you are balancing one thing and ruined 4 other....
Don't forget that all WFA infantry already got their nerfs, from recently (i remember only that, but i sure someone could add other points to that):
PFaust for VG only if was building 1-st building (and no more Panzershrecks for VG, if you remember "good,old days of VG with shrecks")
USF mortar got huge nerf (no more laser guided shells and speed of fire of chaingun, and it range the smallest in game)
Penals nerf received accuracy and Flamethrower not available (goodbye death ball of flamers and guards), passive ability only from 1 VET (earlier it was ALWAYS turn on), no more Hooray.

OK and then what do we do with the balance?

Tone down the lethality of some unit. Grenadier used to be the benchmark and now it is a unit is lackluster.

According to you conscripts are useless but they saw allot of action in the tournament where Soviets did above average.

According to Mr.Smith (and the Top players) it Penal that is not worth building.

The problem lies with other infantry and not with Conscripts.

Yea I know it´s not the problem of conscripts that every unit in oppesed WFA faction beats them (volks, spios, falls, JLI, obers ...).

I know OKW unit need to be toned down to OST and SOV levels, not the other way. But please don´t take this argument as "conscripts are currently fine". Because they´re not

Tone down the lethality of some unit. Grenadier used to be the benchmark and now it is a unit is lackluster.

Tone down lethality not solve problem. If you will do this it more increase appealence of cheap spammable units like osttrupens (because they will start live longer) and also will increased role of power AI weapon like demo, mortars, arillery and so on. If you will tone down all AI weapon, it will do spammable AT squads with shrecks, bazookas and piats (and speed tanks to crush this blobs...). You can't change one thing and don't cahnge other, especially if you looking on lethality of infantry in game. It's dead loop like i said earlier.

Tone down the lethality of some unit. Grenadier used to be the benchmark and now it is a unit is lackluster.

You've obviously never got an LMG gren above Vet zero.

Nor used a rifle nade.

Actually if you HAD used a rifle nade, you'd have got a vetted gren, so...

You've obviously never got an LMG gren above Vet zero.

Nor used a rifle nade.

Actually if you HAD used a rifle nade, you'd have got a vetted gren, so...

The Lmg grenadier is a unit that has more tech cost than bar riflemen or bren tommie and he lose to both. He will also lose to Penal that walk right up to him.

Grenadier with out hmg 42 or 251 support do not do much.

Yea I know it´s not the problem of conscripts that every unit in oppesed WFA faction beats them (volks, spios, falls, JLI, obers ...).

I know OKW unit need to be toned down to OST and SOV levels, not the other way. But please don´t take this argument as "conscripts are currently fine". Because they´re not

Having a simultaneous conversation with allot people complicates things. Conscripts could use some changes but they do not need significant buffs.

I for instance would try:
TS to 1
TS bonus similar to tommie when in cover
a timed ability that cost mu and increase accuracy
replacement of PPsh with SVT (prebuff level)
increase range of AT greande
Replace molotv with a nomrla grenade
move molotov and ourah to penals (as a ability that scale with vet)

Now conscripts are a defensive infantry and Penal an offensive one.

Tone down lethality not solve problem. If you will do this it more increase appealence of cheap spammable units like osttrupens (because they will start live longer) and also will increased role of power AI weapon like demo, mortars, arillery and so on. If you will tone down all AI weapon, it will do spammable AT squads with shrecks, bazookas and piats (and speed tanks to crush this blobs...). You can't change one thing and don't cahnge other, especially if you looking on lethality of infantry in game. It's dead loop like i said earlier.

It does solves the problem. Infantry fights where mostly balanced after the September patch as I explained to you.

Tone down the lethality of some unit. Grenadier used to be the benchmark and now it is a unit is lackluster.

In that case, should we tone down the HMG42 to the new maxim level cuz as mentioned the difference between grens and other, the maxim requires tech.

How do we match the Ostheer sniper with the inexistant USF sniper?
How do we match Pzgrenadiers with USF/Sov/Brit inexistant stock elite squads?