Redesign Penal battalions
![avatar of Vipper](/images/no_av.png)
Posts: 13491 | Subs: 1
Penal become a cheap (200-240)infantry unit armed with PPsh. they vet ability is a sprint ability that allows them to fire but increase their Target size and scale with veterancy. At certain vet level (depending on XP value and cost)they are allow to redeem themselves and upgrade to one of the following: shtrafbat (an elite version of the unit), Gaurds, Shock troops for a MP cost.
This changes will
1) Allow Soviet to delay doctrine choice and still have access to elite infantry via Penal.
2) Allow conscripts and Penal to work together as defensive offensive infantry.
3) Offer better historical feel with Penal being an expendable infantry capable of becoming elite like the Soviet 16th Army.
(some changes will be needed for conscripts but I can explain those later)
![avatar of __deleted__](/images/no_av.png)
Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7
![](http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/129/577/1a4.jpg)
I don´t want to see clown car with ppsh squad inside at 0 minute mark
![avatar of Hater](/uploads/avatar/11068.jpg?updated=1514068181)
Posts: 493
![avatar of Vipper](/images/no_av.png)
Posts: 13491 | Subs: 1
I don´t want to see clown car with ppsh squad inside at 0 minute mark
That is a different issue:
Infantry garrisoning m3 being able to fire is inconstancy that needs to be fixed. Fuel price should be dropped to 0 and unit inside the m3 not able to fire.
An upgrade for units being able to fire from m3 could be available.
![avatar of __deleted__](/images/no_av.png)
Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7
That is a different issue:
Infantry garrisoning m3 being able to fire is inconstancy that needs to be fixed. Fuel price should be dropped to 0 and unit inside the m3 not able to fire.
An upgrade for units being able to fire from m3 could be available.
I don´t know. First we´ll have to focus on fixing conscripts and call ins problem (infantry and tanks alike), before we move to "more cosmetical issues"
![avatar of Vipper](/images/no_av.png)
Posts: 13491 | Subs: 1
I don´t know. First we´ll have to focus on fixing conscripts and call ins problem (infantry and tanks alike), before we move to "more cosmetical issues"
Once can not simply "Fix" conscripts on their own.
All infantry available before minute one need to be rebalanced as it was done in the September patch around the principles of weapon profiles and relative positioning.
Finally Conscript seem to less bad then people claim since they where used in the tournament extensively and Soviet had some of the highest win rates.
They= issue seems to have more to do with allowing room for all Soviet infantry units to be used than "fixing" a specific unit, and that it the direction of proposed solution. So for each time a Soviet unit is "fixed" all other Soviet units are left in oblivion.
![avatar of nee](/images/avatars/222.png?updated=1396284260)
Posts: 1216
This changes will
1) Allow Soviet to delay doctrine choice and still have access to elite infantry via Penal.
2) Allow conscripts and Penal to work together as defensive offensive infantry.
3) Offer better historical feel with Penal being an expendable infantry capable of becoming elite like the Soviet 16th Army.
(some changes will be needed for conscripts but I can explain those later)
Problem is that it doesn't so much delay doctrinal choice but risk making them irrelevant. Penal Ppsh means no point choosing Conscript Ppsh package and Shock Troops, in the same way Penal PTRS replaces Guards.
Penals have a complicate history that's more than mere human wave expendable infantry consisting of thugs; not like historical accuracy matters anyways.
![avatar of Imagelessbean](/uploads/avatar/8721.jpg?updated=1384370152)
Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1
What you are offering is to make T1 a downgraded conscript, that eventually allows you to get better scripts. However, you will lose by then. Going T1 gives up map control and you have to fight to regain it. Making the squad that fights worse is only going to steam roll into complete map loss.
![avatar of frostbite](/images/no_av.png)
Posts: 593
![avatar of ZombiFrancis](/images/no_av.png)
Posts: 2742
Maybe I missed it, but what is wrong with Penals right now? They perform very good AI and can be upgraded to help deal with armor.
Probably the same issues as before the patch, which was their high AI capabilities, especially before 2 CPs. (Their AI capabilities are the most unintuitive as well, as they improve as they lose models, and their SVTs operate in an odd capacity.)
Penals veterancy was nerfed, they can't get flamethrowers, but can stick their satchels on vehicles. They can buy PTRS now too. They no longer have their most critical weakness.
But they are relatively unchanged as a fresh squad in the early game.
The flamethrowers allowed them to deny cover and garrisons. Removing them has done much to reduce their AI impact, especially when rushed with the first 60 munis. Their strength doesn't snowball NEARLY as much into the early-mid game either. Their veterancy is not as powerful which further reduces their AI impact.
But their power without flamethrowers and before vet 3 is still quite considerable.
![avatar of frostbite](/images/no_av.png)
Posts: 593
![avatar of Vipper](/images/no_av.png)
Posts: 13491 | Subs: 1
Problem is that it doesn't so much delay doctrinal choice but risk making them irrelevant. Penal Ppsh means no point choosing Conscript Ppsh package and Shock Troops, in the same way Penal PTRS replaces Guards.
Penals have a complicate history that's more than mere human wave expendable infantry consisting of thugs; not like historical accuracy matters anyways.
Conscripts could easily have their PPsh upgrade replaced with 6 toned SVT improving their performance where their are designed to fight mid. Mixing Smg and bolt action rifles is bad design. The difference with Shock troops is substantial since they would be cheap and expendable instead of tough and expensive.
![avatar of TickTack](/images/no_av.png)
Posts: 578
penals are fine how they are. they already been nerfed to a balanced spot
QFT ffs.
These endless penal posts are so l2p. Fuckin facepalm.
![avatar of nee](/images/avatars/222.png?updated=1396284260)
Posts: 1216
But you still just have Conscripts = Penals, and Penals =Shocks/ Guards. You make doctrinal units redundant entirely.
Conscripts could easily have their PPsh upgrade replaced with 6 toned SVT improving their performance where their are designed to fight mid. Mixing Smg and bolt action rifles is bad design. The difference with Shock troops is substantial since they would be cheap and expendable instead of tough and expensive.
Conscripts getting SVTs is even less of what you get when you just train vanilla Penals. Conscripts are basically there for doctrinal stuff, AT grenades and Merge.
Though to be fair that's pretty much how it can only go, without actually redesigning Guards and Shocks.
The better idea is to try to improve Conscripts without making them Penals 2.0, or ersatz Shocks. We already have that with Penal PTRS
![avatar of Vipper](/images/no_av.png)
Posts: 13491 | Subs: 1
But you still just have Conscripts = Penals, and Penals =Shocks/ Guards. You make doctrinal units redundant entirely.
Conscripts getting SVTs is even less of what you get when you just train vanilla Penals. Conscripts are basically there for doctrinal stuff, AT grenades and Merge.
Though to be fair that's pretty much how it can only go, without actually redesigning Guards and Shocks.
The better idea is to try to improve Conscripts without making them Penals 2.0, or ersatz Shocks. We already have that with Penal PTRS
Actually no. The design is about turning:
1)Conscripts into a defensive infantry good at mid range
2)Turning Penal into a cheap flanking infantry that can later be upgraded
![avatar of __deleted__](/images/no_av.png)
Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7
Maybe I missed it, but what is wrong with Penals right now? They perform very good AI and can be upgraded to help deal with armor.
What you are offering is to make T1 a downgraded conscript, that eventually allows you to get better scripts. However, you will lose by then. Going T1 gives up map control and you have to fight to regain it. Making the squad that fights worse is only going to steam roll into complete map loss.
+1
The 20 seconds tier1 build time is big setback on itself. You literaly give your enemy 20 seconds of opportunity, to get key locations/buildings/cap. That´s the main reason why many players are going 3 engi into tier 1 right now - to save time and get those key positions
![avatar of Vipper](/images/no_av.png)
Posts: 13491 | Subs: 1
+1
The 20 seconds tier1 build time is big setback on itself. You literaly give your enemy 20 seconds of opportunity, to get key locations/buildings/cap. That´s the main reason why many players are going 3 engi into tier 1 right now - to save time and get those key positions
Off Topic:
And that is one of the issues with Ostheer who have waste time to build T1 to get a mainline infantry or built 2 pioneers.
On the other hand that does not change the fact that Penal are the strongest infantry in their time frame and the problems that derive from that.
![avatar of Maret](/uploads/avatar/21151.jpg?updated=1522529240)
Posts: 711
![avatar of Maret](/uploads/avatar/21151.jpg?updated=1522529240)
Posts: 711
![avatar of Crecer13](/uploads/avatar/7985.png?updated=1635749247)
Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2
Another problem is nerfed maxim in T2. Earlier if you build T2, you had maxims and cons, but now you have "bad" HMG and bad cons. T2 now need only for AT and mortars. This another reason so high popularity of T1 and lend lease commander.
You forgot to say a bad mortar, I prefer an overnerf American M1 (does more damage In auto shooting) than the Soviet PM. Only ZiS does its work reliably in T2
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