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The maxim change impact too much Soviets.

13 Apr 2017, 23:04 PM
#1
avatar of voltardark

Posts: 976

The maxim change impact too much Soviets.

T2:All the change made where good individually, but has a whole, it remove all the teeth the Sovs had.

The maxim was an offensive weapon, designed to advance and to follow troops (conscripts).
it's why it had small cone of fire, and fast setup.

Having changed that, The Soviets now lack basic offense and attack follow-up.
Their mortars alone aren't good enough to sustain an offensive because it fire to slowly.

Add the toning down of the T-70 and the flack halftrack, sustain offense is now problematic.

T1:
Penals changes are good, but the flamer was the trade off for not building T2 (no mgs), but now again Sovs lost a great offensive weapon, but got better defense.

This also lead to the Katusha being a too great option (Offensive/defensive), now it's way too common.

Now you need T1 + T2 or T2 + and a gards doctrine and both are too slow.

So we need more focus on giving the Sovs a faster offensive.

It's only my opinion.(from a 4vs4 random automatch player...)
13 Apr 2017, 23:21 PM
#2
avatar of Maret

Posts: 711

MG must be defensive and area denying tool not offensive. Offensive MG it's LMG or guntrack with quads. Main problem with maxim it's that core infantry of SU - conscripts are too weak in comparsion to grens and volks, that was a reason to build only maxim's instead cons. But IMO penals are good, with AT satchels they can fully replace cons as core infantry (it's weird because penals are "elite"), their AI capabilities are pretty solid (without PTRS guns). Also they very good for late game phase where cons absolutely trash. For more aggresive offensive try to use shocks.
13 Apr 2017, 23:31 PM
#3
avatar of voltardark

Posts: 976

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Apr 2017, 23:21 PMMaret
MG must be defensive and area denying tool not offensive. Offensive MG it's LMG or guntrack with quads. Main problem with maxim it's that core infantry of SU - conscripts are too weak in comparsion to grens and volks, that was a reason to build only maxim's instead cons. But IMO penals are good, with AT satchels they can fully replace cons as core infantry (it's weird because penals are "elite"), their AI capabilities are pretty solid (without PTRS guns). Also they very good for late game phase where cons absolutely trash. For more aggresive offensive try to use shocks.



Maxim was made to be an offensive weapon.

Shocks are doctrinal are too short ranged.
14 Apr 2017, 00:13 AM
#4
avatar of Maret

Posts: 711




Maxim was made to be an offensive weapon.



Yea and M3 was made to carry infantry inside, but sniper can't go in for sake of balance. Time changed. Now maxim it's defensive tool. Because as offensive it's will give us maxim cancer tactic - more maxims for glory of maxim God! I tried played in such style it's absolutely stupid and in right hands very hard countered (player with equal skill can't properly counter this tactic). IMO maxim should get personal soviet teleportation tool like germans have.
14 Apr 2017, 00:36 AM
#5
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 236

maxim needs to be cheaper if its going to be nerfed or penals having a faster build time. The problem soviets have with their buildings if they don't go con spam in the opening then soviets have a relatively slow start.
14 Apr 2017, 00:47 AM
#6
avatar of voltardark

Posts: 976

maxim needs to be cheaper if its going to be nerfed or penals having a faster build time. The problem soviets have with their buildings if they don't go con spam in the opening then soviets have a relatively slow start.



Maybe you are on something.

Or both with a faster build time?

Or build the conscripts faster, so they have te time to use sand bags ?

Or build the building faster (t1,t2)?


-Fast fielding infantry, fit rather well with Soviets.

:)
14 Apr 2017, 00:49 AM
#7
avatar of Nano

Posts: 212

The maxim change impact too much Soviets.

The maxim was an offensive weapon, designed to advance and to follow troops (conscripts).
it's why it had small cone of fire, and fast setup.


The Maxim in this game was meant to be a support weapon. The problem was too many people were just using them as their main offensive unit.

Add the toning down of the T-70 and the flack halftrack, sustain offense is now problematic.


I'm not sure that these are serious issues. I agree that the Soviets need some kind of love but I haven't worked out exactly the best way to do that yet. Probably starting with Conscripts would be good.
14 Apr 2017, 01:34 AM
#8
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

Penals are quite capable of dealing with light vehicles, and shred infantry. Their satchel charges are potent and require care as well.

The maxim is a straight upgrade to the conscript squad right now. You get a script squad, but with suppression, why wouldn't you always pick this unit up?

MGs are supposed to be static units that you fight around not paired or tripled up.

The changes I see are a good attempt at addressing a real problem, Maxims are too good and cannot be balanced in their current form without making them feel unresponsive.
14 Apr 2017, 01:38 AM
#9
avatar of voltardark

Posts: 976

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2017, 00:49 AMNano


The Maxim in this game was meant to be a support weapon. The problem was too many people were just using them as their main offensive unit.



I'm not sure that these are serious issues. I agree that the Soviets need some kind of love but I haven't worked out exactly the best way to do that yet. Probably starting with Conscripts would be good.



Wandering if starting 1 conscript already build would be too strong ? (manpower was a Soviet strength)

Who would win a fight between a OKW pios vs 1 conscrit + 1 eng ? the Sov probably ?

:)
14 Apr 2017, 01:58 AM
#10
avatar of voltardark

Posts: 976

Penals are quite capable of dealing with light vehicles, and shred infantry. Their satchel charges are potent and require care as well.

The maxim is a straight upgrade to the conscript squad right now. You get a script squad, but with suppression, why wouldn't you always pick this unit up?

MGs are supposed to be static units that you fight around not paired or tripled up.

The changes I see are a good attempt at addressing a real problem, Maxims are too good and cannot be balanced in their current form without making them feel unresponsive.


Maxim may be too good, but i rather have an Hmg42 from T0 anytime instead. (with armor piercing in bonus).

My solution:

-Pack faster then now, must have the time to pack upon getting a flaming nade, or hit from a mortar);
-Get out of building faster then now;
-Suppress more, but less than an mg42;
-Do less damage, but more then an mg42;
-Cost more then now;
-Slower to setup then now;
-10% less firing arc than a Mg42 with same transversal speed.
-No Vet ability;
-Vet 1,2,3 close too the same bonus as the Mg42

Now you have a defensive HMG.

So no more spamming, but you got something durable for your investment. (Soviet style)

But it won't solve the anemic soviet offense...
14 Apr 2017, 02:33 AM
#11
avatar of c r u C e

Posts: 525

As others have said,Conscripts need some tweaks...
An interesting solution I saw a few days ago would be non-doctrinal Ppsh's and instead of the doctrinal assault package give them 2 or 3 SVT's maybe with lower damage than Penals...?
14 Apr 2017, 02:33 AM
#12
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1954

Looking at the results of the GCS placement matches, RIP Soviets with or without maxim. The only wins by people playing Soviets were ones where the same player won both matches, meaning that the skill difference was great enough that the faction didn't matter. In all the matches where each player won one game, the Soviets always lost.

Realistically, maxim spam wasn't fun even when you're the one doing it. I'm fine with the nerf but they should have made Cons better and possibly not nerfed Guards. They probably did have to take the flamer away from Penals because it made some maps unplayable against Soviets. I quit playing OKW for awhile because of the flamer Penal blobs (Penals to Guards to T70, yeah fun).
14 Apr 2017, 07:36 AM
#13
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1

The maxim change impact too much Soviets.

T2:All the change made where good individually, but has a whole, it remove all the teeth the Sovs had.

The maxim was an offensive weapon, designed to advance and to follow troops (conscripts).
it's why it had small cone of fire, and fast setup.

Having changed that, The Soviets now lack basic offense and attack follow-up.
Their mortars alone aren't good enough to sustain an offensive because it fire to slowly.

Add the toning down of the T-70 and the flack halftrack, sustain offense is now problematic.

T1:
Penals changes are good, but the flamer was the trade off for not building T2 (no mgs), but now again Sovs lost a great offensive weapon, but got better defense.

This also lead to the Katusha being a too great option (Offensive/defensive), now it's way too common.

Now you need T1 + T2 or T2 + and a gards doctrine and both are too slow.

So we need more focus on giving the Sovs a faster offensive.

It's only my opinion.(from a 4vs4 random automatch player...)


where
is
the
replay?
14 Apr 2017, 08:10 AM
#14
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2



where
is
the
replay?


Fat chance getting a reply from a well known Allied fanboy, he has his own logic.
14 Apr 2017, 08:15 AM
#15
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 578

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2017, 00:49 AMNano

I'm not sure that these are serious issues. I agree that the Soviets need some kind of love but I haven't worked out exactly the best way to do that yet. Probably starting with Conscripts would be good.

Allowing cons to upgrade a single DP would fill a gap.
14 Apr 2017, 11:17 AM
#16
avatar of voltardark

Posts: 976



where
is
the
replay?


Did
you
read
the
post
?
No need of replay...
14 Apr 2017, 11:19 AM
#17
avatar of voltardark

Posts: 976



Fat chance getting a reply from a well known Allied fanboy, he has his own logic.


It's a global analysis, there is no replay, it's from many matches, playing and watching them... i must be dumb to have to answer that.
14 Apr 2017, 13:18 PM
#18
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2


Allowing cons to upgrade a single DP would fill a gap.


What's going to be the point of Guards then?

Cons get DP, Penals get AT rifles, why the need for doctrinal infantry like Guards?



It's a global analysis, there is no replay, it's from many matches, playing and watching them... i must be dumb to have to answer that.


You just did, so...
14 Apr 2017, 13:19 PM
#19
avatar of Delodax

Posts: 49

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2017, 02:33 AMGrumpy
Looking at the results of the GCS placement matches, RIP Soviets with or without maxim. The only wins by people playing Soviets were ones where the same player won both matches, meaning that the skill difference was great enough that the faction didn't matter. In all the matches where each player won one game, the Soviets always lost.

Realistically, maxim spam wasn't fun even when you're the one doing it. I'm fine with the nerf but they should have made Cons better and possibly not nerfed Guards. They probably did have to take the flamer away from Penals because it made some maps unplayable against Soviets. I quit playing OKW for awhile because of the flamer Penal blobs (Penals to Guards to T70, yeah fun).


Will be interesting to ser hon them fare post group stages. Haven't watched any placement games but in the streams featuring Soviets I've watched they've looked pretty solid.
14 Apr 2017, 13:57 PM
#20
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 578



What's going to be the point of Guards then?

Cons get DP, Penals get AT rifles, why the need for doctrinal infantry like Guards?


If you went T2 and want inf with PTRS? And you don't get guards because they have a DP. You get guards for elite inf that is versatile. They'll always be better than cons, therefore they have intrinsic value.

Your post is a straw man.
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