Relic Winter Balance Preview v1.1 Update

You want another 3 months of allied dominance . Sorry i really dont know if its irony or serious post. You cant believe anyrhing on .org

It was a serious post. And no, I play Axis primarily, it's hard enough as it is.
I was simply saying, penals excel at infantry combat; to give them AT it would effectively eliminate the need to T2 and the Zis.

allied dominance?
axis hype sees that, but stats dont lie
http://coh2chart.com/

It's blocked at work, what are you trying to say?

Thank you Mr.Smith for your hard work, on this great game.
I enjoy this game and thank her for time together with my friends.

+1 on Smith.
Lol WTF, Her?

It got skimmed over before, but what about Panzerbusche AT Rifle for Pioneers in order to help Ostheer deal with early WC-51 and M3A1? It's already modeled, it just needs MP stats.

It got skimmed over before, but what about Panzerbusche AT Rifle for Pioneers in order to help Ostheer deal with early WC-51 and M3A1? It's already modeled, it just needs MP stats.

I think panzerfaust and sheer firepower from hmg or even rifles is more than enaugh to counter them if you know how.

Adding panzerbushes to cheap non combat infantry will resutl into few things.
1. Giving ostheer good cheap AT blobs, that can counter anything except IS2, and yes, you can have 3 pios thorough match
2. Pios will vet like crazy because they will damage highly valuable targets, this will result into faster vet and thust faster repairs and we don´t know how strong tank + 3 fast repair AT rifle pioneer combo can be. Followed by grens ofcourse because you don´t have to invest into pak (panzerbushe for early-mid game, tanks for lategame because you will get more ground)

It was a serious post. And no, I play Axis primarily, it's hard enough as it is.
I was simply saying, penals excel at infantry combat; to give them AT it would effectively eliminate the need to T2 and the Zis.

I said that PTRS penals are overperforming so I don´t know if you haven´t read my whole post or what you was aiming before (hold the fking phone ...).

At least now we understand each other properly

It got skimmed over before, but what about Panzerbusche AT Rifle for Pioneers in order to help Ostheer deal with early WC-51 and M3A1? It's already modeled, it just needs MP stats.

Are you suggesting that Wehr cannot deal with either of these units out of the gate? I disagree on that strongly.

In any case how would buffing Pio's help? As is the first 60 munitions comes after the T2 unlock, so you don't have it before and by that time you are looking at getting a hard counter. In addition, Wehr has access to fausts minute one.

The jeep rushes you are talking about are very risky plays that nearly require huge bleed early or they end up hurting their tech race too much to even stay on the field. These units are not frequently seen and rightfully so because of their limited use and high risk character.

Adding another weapon only opens the door to more balance problems and fails to solve the original issue, if there is one, that early vehicles are too powerful and quickly scaled out of the game.

Edit: I will add the refit commander ability is designed specifically around one vehicle (WC51) and it more than anything should be examined at some future point.

I think panzerfaust and sheer firepower from hmg or even rifles is more than enaugh to counter them if you know how.

Fair enough, though I never liked trying to counter them that way. It relies more on your opponent making a mistake. I remember one of the Tourneys where Barton (I think?) spammed M3's and his opponent countered it by going Elite Troops, vetting an MG 42, and annihilating 3-4 M3's with API rounds. Not only did the counter end up being more expensive than all the M3's, but it only worked because Barton wasn't paying attention to his little M3 blob. I myself have difficulty dealing with M3 rushes since Ost T1 has no reusable AT, and Soviets getting T1 AT Rifles seemed like a good time to bring up that Ostheer doesn't.

Fair enough, though I never liked trying to counter them that way. It relies more on your opponent making a mistake. I remember one of the Tourneys where Barton (I think?) spammed M3's and his opponent countered it by going Elite Troops, vetting an MG 42, and annihilating 3-4 M3's with API rounds. Not only did the counter end up being more expensive than all the M3's, but it only worked because Barton wasn't paying attention to his little M3 blob. I myself have difficulty dealing with M3 rushes since Ost T1 has no reusable AT, and Soviets getting T1 AT Rifles seemed like a good time to bring up that Ostheer doesn't.

Or play more defensively, hide troops to ambush m3, bait it or flank it to deal finishing blow. Often 1 faust means no M3.

Also keep in mind that he won´t have many troops and maxims because he spent his resources on M3 and tier1. Also his lights will come later.
And don´t forget that 222 hardcounters M3 as well.

If we give more early AT to axis, then allied player will never ever make scout cars, even right now they are fairly underused

The only reason scout cars are underused right now is because Penals are so ridiculously strong and just spamming them offers better longterm payoff. Even so, I see them fairly often.

There's going to be a lot more room to use the M3 and the Sniper because of PTRS, especially with the 222 delayed by 15 fuel.

Have overperforming penals with new PTRS profile have been noted and are you working on fixing it before patch becomes live ?

If you don´t know what I´m talkinb about, look at my replays with that PTRS and my tests.

Yes, they may be counterable in top 10, but definitely they will become problem and meta in anything below 200 because that combo is literally uncouterable unless you screw up or your opponent completely outplays you(none of my oppoents was able to counter it, and there were many player on same level as me.).

Also I don´t thing tier1 stalling meta into sherman spam isn´t something we want to create.

Hector

Have overperforming penals with new PTRS profile have been noted and are you working on fixing it before patch becomes live ?

If you don´t know what I´m talkinb about, look at my replays with that PTRS and my tests.

Yes, they may be counterable in top 10, but definitely they will become problem and meta in anything below 200 because that combo is literally uncouterable unless you screw up or your opponent completely outplays you(none of my oppoents was able to counter it, and there were many player on same level as me.).

Also I don´t thing tier1 stalling meta into sherman spam isn´t something we want to create.

Hector

PTRS penal adjustments is nr1 in our list of upcoming changes for the week. At the very least, we will be nerfing PTRS anti-infantry damage by an additional 50% (so that it deals 10 damage). Thus, even if Penals get lucky, you won't be seeing 20-damage spikes.

Unlike the guards PTRS anti-infantry nerf, we will be doing this in a way that won't affect anti-vehicle performance (i.e., the note about Guards PTRS in the v1.1 changelog).

Thanks for taking the time to abuse the meta, before it becomes the meta!

T70 is weaker but ok; one issue it has now is that it can't escape (crawl away) from even a sturmpio with schrek. Perhaps it now needs MG buff?

PTRS penal adjustments is nr1 in our list of upcoming changes for the week. At the very least, we will be nerfing PTRS anti-infantry damage by an additional 50% (so that it deals 10 damage). Thus, even if Penals get lucky, you won't be seeing 20-damage spikes.

Unlike the guards PTRS anti-infantry nerf, we will be doing this in a way that won't affect anti-vehicle performance (i.e., the note about Guards PTRS in the v1.1 changelog).

Thanks for taking the time to abuse the meta, before it becomes the meta!

Thank you, thats why I´m here. I will much rather find boring OP metas than trying to explain player in state office how to counter them.

Hope these changed will be enaught. Also nerfing dushka DPS (even in exchange for MP cost decrease)will help (if you only can nerf it this patch)

OTHER THING THAT MAY BE OP:

Grenades: standardise grenade damage to buildings by their cost or something. Right now for example shock grenade or rifle grenade or USF grenade or british grenade will damage wooden building for like 20-33% while axis bundle grenade one shot building (whitch is really stupid). Also can you make russian and frakish houses similary strong, one tend to fall to fast when under fire (sov) while other tend to survive thorough whole match, only falling to strong arty like stuka bomb. Is it indented ?

UKF
bren carrier with flamer is too good right now I think. Even better if we take new 222 cost into account. I suggest moving munnition cost back to 90 or at least 75 (so it isn´t useless and serves job, but also losing it prematurely will hurt you)


British glider medics: They take ages to be built. Decreasing their training time will make much more used I think

AC - tend to miss too often against vehicles while moving

OST
Assault grens: 5 popcap is too low for 5 member squad and can possibly lead into big blobs in team games and also they have make smaller bleed. Suggestion: change popcap at least to 6

Puma - tend to miss too often against vehicles while moving

Panther - tend to miss too often against vehicles while moving


SOV
Penals: Penals with PTRS in M3 scout car are really strong combo, they can hunt down damaged 222 or even outfight it run in, disembark troops, kill 222 while M3 leaves. I don´t think this is intended. Also weapon changing in M3 doesn´t make them particulary weak against infantry while in M3. I think this is not intended - giving soviets relatively good AT vehicle in tier 1 that is spammable ( will always counter 222 and then can sniper roam even more because otheer player is set back even more).
Suggestion: once penals get PTRS, they shouldn´t be able to garison into M3 (they should into quad thought because it comes later)

-visual change - give them some icon that represents to the last men ability, because right now many players don´t even know they have tha ability

Su76 barrage cost is too low to make it no brainer for soviets (they fload to much munni) and also at same time recharge time is set too high to make it less useless. Changing munnition cost to 30 while decreasing time to zis level will make it much more interesting

I think USF is fine, have to test them more
Haven´t tested OKW because they weren´t changed that much. Luchs seem to be fine (except fuel change to 60 if haven´t done already would be great).


Bugs: in my game (arnhem brits vs ostheer) commados were ordered to throw grenade, then they were ordered to not throw the grenade. I lost munnition and ability was set to cooldown afterwards. After 1 second grenade blow in location where it was meant to be fired without showing timer on ground.

Snipers, especially soviet snipers sometime to tend crawl ages before they shot their tager, even at cost of going from cover and actually being in range already - you can see it in my caen game when they attack mg42 in north-western house (in later part of game, don´t know exact time)

Ghost wire- we all know what ghost sandbaggin and ghostwiring is. You should change it in next patch (or even in this one if possible) - ghost structures (sandbags, wire, tank traps) should die after few shots when they are not actually being constructed or already build.


PS: If I find something else I will surely tell you

Once again then you for you time and efforts
Hector

Will there be anything done with the Greyhound? It's pretty useless in it's current state and since the team is addressing light vehicles something should be done with it, same with WC truck

I still think the Greyhound could find use as a sort of USF T-70. Especially now that the Stuart is being changed to be a more AV role.

Grenades: standardise grenade damage to buildings by their cost or something. Right now for example shock grenade or rifle grenade or USF grenade or british grenade will damage wooden building for like 20-33% while axis bundle grenade one shot building (whitch is really stupid). Also can you make russian and frakish houses similary strong, one tend to fall to fast when under fire (sov) while other tend to survive thorough whole match, only falling to strong arty like stuka bomb. Is it indented ?

I will add this to the list of bugs/inconsistencies we have. However, giving more HP to certain building types may actually require a lot of legwork:
- Identify these entities in the files
- Modify the HP to the right value

Since this mod is already retouching pretty much everything else, I would rather postpone this bugfix for another, more lightweight patch.

UKF
bren carrier with flamer is too good right now I think. Even better if we take new 222 cost into account. I suggest moving munnition cost back to 90 or at least 75 (so it isn´t useless and serves job, but also losing it prematurely will hurt you)

Instead, or in addition to a munitions cost increase, would it help if we locked the Bren carrier behind something else?
- e.g., AEC/Bofors tech
- or, grenades tech (if we could offset some of nade tech cost to T3)
- Or, otherwise, by how much fuel would you delay the UC?

Otherwise, what do you think would help?

British glider medics: They take ages to be built. Decreasing their training time will make much more used I think

That's an inconsistency I am already aware of. I'll pass this on.

AC - tend to miss too often against vehicles while moving

Technically the AEC should be at least equal to the Puma with respect to moving accuracy. Do you think the AEC requires a buff for a particular reason.

OST
Assault grens: 5 popcap is too low for 5 member squad and can possibly lead into big blobs in team games and also they have make smaller bleed. Suggestion: change popcap at least to 6

Could be an idea. I wouldn't consider assault grens an issue in teamgames though, due to their pathetic range.

Puma - tend to miss too often against vehicles while moving

Same as the AEC. At the very least it should be a lot better this patch though, no?

Panther - tend to miss too often against vehicles while moving

Out of scope

SOV
Penals: Penals with PTRS in M3 scout car are really strong combo, they can hunt down damaged 222 or even outfight it run in, disembark troops, kill 222 while M3 leaves. I don´t think this is intended. Also weapon changing in M3 doesn´t make them particulary weak against infantry while in M3. I think this is not intended - giving soviets relatively good AT vehicle in tier 1 that is spammable ( will always counter 222 and then can sniper roam even more because otheer player is set back even more).
Suggestion: once penals get PTRS, they shouldn´t be able to garison into M3 (they should into quad thought because it comes later)

-visual change - give them some icon that represents to the last men ability, because right now many players don´t even know they have tha ability

Will have to discuss with others. Is there any reason why Guards-in-M3 wouldn't be a stronger combo for that matter, though?

Su76 barrage cost is too low to make it no brainer for soviets (they fload to much munni) and also at same time recharge time is set too high to make it less useless. Changing munnition cost to 30 while decreasing time to zis level will make it much more interesting

Technically, the SU-76 munitions cost is there to prevent SU76 blobs from scaling too well. In teamgames I regularly float about 4-6 SU-76's, and they really pay off.

I think USF is fine, have to test them more
Haven´t tested OKW because they weren´t changed that much. Luchs seem to be fine (except fuel change to 60 if haven´t done already would be great).

Already in the plans

Bugs: in my game (arnhem brits vs ostheer) commados were ordered to throw grenade, then they were ordered to not throw the grenade. I lost munnition and ability was set to cooldown afterwards. After 1 second grenade blow in location where it was meant to be fired without showing timer on ground.

Snipers, especially soviet snipers sometime to tend crawl ages before they shot their tager, even at cost of going from cover and actually being in range already - you can see it in my caen game when they attack mg42 in north-western house (in later part of game, don´t know exact time)

Ghost wire- we all know what ghost sandbaggin and ghostwiring is. You should change it in next patch (or even in this one if possible) - ghost structures (sandbags, wire, tank traps) should die after few shots when they are not actually being constructed or already build.


PS: If I find something else I will surely tell you

Once again then you for you time and efforts
Hector

I have never ever seen or experienced the gammon bomb bug you describe. To me, it seems as if no projectile was spawned.

I noticed that weird crawling thing about the snipers in the game you mentioned. I'll have to look it up.

Thx again!

Any idea of how to fix the longlasting bug where only one man of a squad arrives on the scene, or at a dropped weapon? He has to wait till the rest of his squad decide to set off and then arrive, in order to recrew. It seems completely random.

And also you mentioned you would be looking at the bug that traps OKW infantry at the battlegroup retreat point. Will this be in scope for fixing?

I still think the Greyhound could find use as a sort of USF T-70. Especially now that the Stuart is being changed to be a more AV role.

Make it good vs infantry, remove cheeseshot and give it Predator Vision!

Make it good vs infantry, remove cheeseshot and give it Predator Vision!

I think you mean KonigsKubel Vision

I think you mean KonigsKubel Vision

I had in mind something like the Valentine's ability, which is pretty much Predator Vision.