Relic Winter Balance Preview v1.1 Update

That is actually incorrect since UKF squad retain their extra Bonus from cover even at point blank Range as far as I know.

And once more Tommies will beat grenadier to pulp in point blank fight.

This is correct. The cover bonus I was referring to is the -50% accuracy -50% received accuracy bonuses that weapons suffer from when trying to attack a squad behind heavy cover; if they aren't close enough.

Closing in, means equalizing the situation.

Tommies do cost a ton more, and have no other utility apart from anti-infantry. If Grens want to win in a short-range fight, they probably should rely on the G43 upgrade.

But when your squads are f*cking pinatas and drop weapons on daily basis once they lose 2+ members so you have run out of cover get weapon run into cover while you lose another weapon is not a good design

You mean like Shreck Pgs who actually do not have choice to equip only 1 weapon?

Why would one's weapon be dropped outside of cover if one is fighting from cover as one should with UKF units?

Why would one not retreat once you the unit is down to 50% entities?

Allowing enemies to pick up your weapons is simply a mistake...

And once more being able to pick 2 weapons is bonus choice few faction have, why shouldn't there be a drawback for it, since other factions can not?

So I run few tests about penals.

They were always fighting against grens without cover in range something between mid and long (more long than mid, ussual range where units meet when they run few meters to get cover )

Vet 0 without upgrades

Penals always won against grens without problems - I think its intended and I consider it fine

Vet 0 penals with PTRS grens without upgrades

This was most balanced match where both sides won often only with 1(OST)-2(SOV) members. I don´t know if this was intended that upgrades penals can still fight off grens.


Vet 0 penals PTRS grens lmg

In this match-up grens completely rekt penals, surviving with 1-3 models generaly 2


And now it becomes funny

Vet 3 penals with PTRS vs Vet 3 grens with lmg

This match favours to grens but only by a little. They often won with 1 member, Health from almost none to amost full health. I think this is not intended but it happen. Penals have so high acc bonuses so they PTRSes actually start hitting rather hard.


And vet 3 penals with ptrs vs vet 3 grens without lmg

Grens had no chance


Conclusions. PTRS itself may be fine, but at vet3 it get huge acc bonus resulting into mini sniper rifle. Also having AT weapons will make penals vet like crazy because they will damage highly valuable targets like luchs puma or other light/medium tanks.

How to fix it: Vet3 bonus shouldn´t apply to PTRS or maybe only increasing its acuraccy slightly.


Please mod team, be aware of PTRS penals blobs because they get crazy once hit vet3 and with AT weapons they hit vet3 faster than before

You mean like Shreck Pgs who actually do not have choice to equip only 1 weapon?

Why would one's weapon be dropped outside of cover if one is fighting from cover as one should with UKF units?

Why would one not retreat once you the unit is down to 50% entities?

Allowing enemies to pick up your weapons is simply a mistake...

And once more being able to pick 2 weapons is bonus choice few faction have, why shouldn't there be a drawback for it, since other factions can not?

Pgrens start dropping weapons below 2 models. Grens start dropping weapons once they have 0 models while IS start dropping weapons once they are below 4 models whitch is ridikulous.

This was also why guard pinata was fixed some time before. Simply it is really player unfriendly and result into bad gameplay. You don´t know it is annoying when you start losing weapons once you lose more than 1 of 5 models

I like the mechanics of Tommies, but they bleed a lot. I hope the Tommies get into the winter mod for a review. The contribution of miragefla with the UC is the best of T1, the rest needs a review

So I run few tests about penals.

They were always fighting against grens without cover in range something between mid and long (more long than mid, ussual range where units meet when they run few meters to get cover )

Vet 0 without upgrades

Penals always won against grens without problems - I think its intended and I consider it fine

Vet 0 penals with PTRS grens without upgrades

This was most balanced match where both sides won often only with 1(OST)-2(SOV) members. I don´t know if this was intended that upgrades penals can still fight off grens.


Vet 0 penals PTRS grens lmg

In this match-up grens completely rekt penals, surviving with 1-3 models generaly 2


And now it becomes funny

Vet 3 penals with PTRS vs Vet 3 grens with lmg

This match favours to grens but only by a little. They often won with 1 member, Health from almost none to amost full health. I think this is not intended but it happen. Penals have so high acc bonuses so they PTRSes actually start hitting rather hard.


And vet 3 penals with ptrs vs vet 3 grens without lmg

Grens had no chance


Conclusions. PTRS itself may be fine, but at vet3 it get huge acc bonus resulting into mini sniper rifle. Also having AT weapons will make penals vet like crazy because they will damage highly valuable targets like luchs puma or other light/medium tanks.

How to fix it: Vet3 bonus shouldn´t apply to PTRS or maybe only increasing its acuraccy slightly.


Please mod team, be aware of PTRS penals blobs because they get crazy once hit vet3 and with AT weapons they hit vet3 faster than before

Thanks for running the tests Hector. At the very least, what we could do is nerf Penal PTRS accuracy even more, so that they still almost always hit all vehicles at all ranges, but miss infantry.

We could for instance, change their accuracy from 0.25 (far) 0.69 (close) to 0.055 (far), 0.06 (close). And, if that still doesn't fix the problem, we can also further nerf their damage vs infantry.

That will basically have the same effect you describe vs infantry; even a 70% increase of accuracy with the vet bonus will not be enough to render the rifles usable (which is the intended design).

...while IS start dropping weapons once they are below 4 models whitch is ridikulous.

Only at vet 3, they need to lose 2-3 model before that.

This was also why guard pinata was fixed some time before. Simply it is really player unfriendly and result into bad gameplay. You don´t know it is annoying when you start losing weapons once you lose more than 1 of 5 models

Guards started with 2 weapon and could only upgrade with 2 more so they did not actually have a choice. In addition they started dropping after losing 2 model from Vet 0.

I play the game I know how annoying losing weapon is, I also know that the most annoying weapon to lose is Shreck or Lmg34 especially to single explosion that wiped out your full health squad.

In the end of they if you find so annoying do not double equip your squads, it is an option you have...

Only at vet 3, they need to lose 2-3 model before that.

This is a game about unit preservation. The player has no input in this decision.

Guards started with 2 weapon and could only upgrade with 2 more so they did not actually have a choice. In addition they started dropping after losing 2 model from Vet 0.

I play the game I know how annoying losing weapon is, I also know that the most annoying weapon to lose is Shreck or Lmg34 especially to single explosion that wiped out your full health squad.

In the end of they if you find so annoying do not double equip your squads, it is an option you have...

I think the point that Hector is trying to make is that neither Tommies nor Guards have a choice about weapons. That's because both squads are being forcefully shoved a pair of rifles the player cannot opt out of. At least, for Guards, the PTRS rifles are, still, useful for something.

Tommy weapon dropping is also completely different from dropping weapons when getting wiped. Weapon upgrades can become randomly unavailable to the squad, already by the time the squad drops to 3 members. LMG gren squads can rely on the fact that the LMG will be available to them, as long as there is 1 model left alive. Thus, LMG Gren is a no-brainer. Bren Tommies has a trade-off.

This is a super frustrating mechanic that we want to get rid of. However, for the reasons outlined elsewhere, this would require a minor Tommy rework to keep balanced. Unfortunately, we are not allowed to make such a change for the time being.

I like Barton's proposal about forced weapon drop on wipe, as this would solve a lot of issues (especially Soviet infantry being unable to procure weapon upgrades of their own).

I think the point that Hector is trying to make is that neither Tommies nor Guards have a choice about weapons.

Shreck PG do not have a choice and thing are even worse with the G43 upgrades for them..

Tommies actually have a choice the can chose to pick 1 weapon instead of 2...

Having double equipped infantry greatly increase the performance of already strong infantry and promotes blob is actually see no problem if there is a down side to it.

The fact that Pg's can very easily drop shreck and become much more potent in larges squads is imo one of the reasons why we do not see PG blobs that much.

And again allowing a weapon be left on the field when you still have 3-4 models is actually bad play, being wiped out full health for 4 men squads can be simply RNG.

Thanks for running the tests Hector. At the very least, what we could do is nerf Penal PTRS accuracy even more, so that they still almost always hit all vehicles at all ranges, but miss infantry.

We could for instance, change their accuracy from 0.25 (far) 0.69 (close) to 0.055 (far), 0.06 (close). And, if that still doesn't fix the problem, we can also further nerf their damage vs infantry.

That will basically have the same effect you describe vs infantry; even a 70% increase of accuracy with the vet bonus will not be enough to render the rifles usable (which is the intended design).

But then you completely nerf them at vet0. I though you should give them same accuraccy as other PTRS have but decrease their DMG to 10 so they are less RNG based, vet based but still are only half as good as other PTRSes

Shreck PG do not have a choice and thing are even worse with the G43 upgrades for them..

Tommies actually have a choice the can chose to pick 1 weapon instead of 2...

Having double equipped infantry greatly increase the performance of already strong infantry and promotes blob is actually see no problem if there is a down side to it.

The fact that Pg's can very easily drop shreck and become much more potent in larges squads is imo one of the reasons why we do not see PG blobs that much.

And again allowing a weapon be left on the field when you still have 3-4 models is actually bad play, being wiped out full health for 4 men squads can be simply RNG.

Schreck Pgrens have a choice, you dont have to upgrade them with g43 and schrecks. Why would you do that anyway because G43 have bigger priority than schreck so it will nerf your AT capabilities even more.

Whereas IS sections dont have that option. Simply once they get vet3 they get 2 useless rifles that turn them into pinata. Yes you can give them 1 lmg but then they are shitty till they get vet3. So all in all they will always be shitty no mater what you do instaed of pgrens where you have the choice to give them 2 schrecks and g43. They dont get instatly fucking G43 once they get vet3 just because they can ...

the stug is a tank destroyer. the unit was useless in a generalist role and it took 2 years before the stug finally find their niche of being a tank destroyer.

tank destroyer do not engage infantry. the only tank destroyer in the game that can engage infantry is the m10 and that's because of the retarded ai and movement.

never go full retard

that's why Stug could make a role of assault gun, being good vs tanks and infantry and not being good only vs one type of unit and even tho its tank destroyer, it's not that good in its role, simply to slow to rotate and easy to outflank

Schreck Pgrens have a choice, you dont have to upgrade them with g43 and schrecks. Why would you do that anyway because G43 have bigger priority than schreck so it will nerf your AT capabilities even more.

There is little reason to upgrade with G43 (other than interrogation), but the problem exist for PGs even without them (it simply made worse with them). The problem does exist also with shreck S.T. who actually do benefit from g43 and can drop it easier or be left with out if the lose the shreck entity.

The issue with Shreck Pgs, is that one has to consider retreating after losing 1 model or risking dropping a weapon during retreat...this imo is contributing factor to less PG shreck Blobs.

In the end of the day we can agree to disagree. Imo not picking a weapon you dropped is mostly bad play (accept rng squad wipes, and sometimes dropping weapon on retreat) and thus I see no problem with being penalized for it.

In addition being able to double equip weapon is serious perk and again I do not see a reason not to have draw backs.

If perceived this an issue I would have to perceived the VG not being able to pick up weapon a more serious one and I do not perceive it as an issue.

The issue with Shreck Pgs, is that one has to consider retreating after losing 1 model or risking dropping a weapon during retreat...this imo is contributing factor to less PG shreck Blobs.

In the end of the day we can agree to disagree. Imo losing weapon is mostly bad play (accept rng squad wipes) and thus I see no problem with being penalized for it.

In addition being able to double equip weapon is serious perk and again I do not see a reason not to have draw backs.

If perceived this an issue I would have to perceived the VG not being able to pick up weapon a more serious one and I do not perceive it as an issue.

I agree about losing weapons and bad play. The issue is that some units (tommies now and guards some time ago) drop weapons much easier then other units. And this is a case of balance.

Or instead of weird solution with PTRS we can put M-42 in T1, becasue why not?
A bit of combined arms and tactic instead of spamming Penals with panic-ptrs.

It would just require changing 1 ability in 2 doctrines from Relic.

But then you completely nerf them at vet0. I though you should give them same accuraccy as other PTRS have but decrease their DMG to 10 so they are less RNG based, vet based but still are only half as good as other PTRSes

Fully agreed with this, giving them low damage and high accuracy puts a hard limit on DPS by nullifying the accuracy boost. If you do that, their veterancy will cause them to hit 100% accuracy, which will act as a hard-cap on their DPS due to low damage per-hit.

that's why Stug could make a role of assault gun, being good vs tanks and infantry and not being good only vs one type of unit and even tho its tank destroyer, it's not that good in its role, simply to slow to rotate and easy to outflank

They did that before, and all it did was eat into the Panzer IV's role while not being particularly good at anything. It was the unit you bought when you were in a pinch and couldn't afford a Panzer IV. The current role is best because it brings balance to Ostheer T3, which looks like:

Panzer IV: Generalist
Ostwind: AI Specialist
StuG III: AT Specialist

Or instead of weird solution with PTRS we can put M-42 in T1, becasue why not?
A bit of combined arms and tactic instead of spamming Penals with panic-ptrs.

It would just require changing 1 ability in 2 doctrines from Relic.

Here lies the problem

Or instead of weird solution with PTRS we can put M-42 in T1, becasue why not?
A bit of combined arms and tactic instead of spamming Penals with panic-ptrs.

It would just require changing 1 ability in 2 doctrines from Relic.

I also love this idea unlike M-42 in T2 and ZiS-3 in T3 like in campaign. I wonder if Mr. Smith & co. will consider this.

Hello Modders;

I would like to post an idea about balance that I think it's not being addressed on this winter balance patches.

Lets talk about the Calliope:

While it may not be a key unit in 1v1, it is in 2v2 or higher. And I consider it one of the most frustrating weapon regarding wiping squads.

I know it is on a commander, but it is a good commander.

The main problem here is that there is no chance on avoiding wipes. The first barrage is powerful enough to wipe squads with high chance even if you hit retreat. What I think it could fix that, is to increase the number of barrages by 1, and reduce the nº of rockets fired per barrage so that, the power vs static units/buildings will remain the same, but it will give a chance to hit retreat and don't get wiped by a high probability RNG.

In 1v1, building a first calliope is a high fuel invest for a faction with weak AT guns and a commander without mines, so it is risky to call in a calliope when it can be flanked by a medium tank. But in 2v2 or higher games, the sinergies with other factions makes the calliope unflankable, and even if you reach to him, his high survability (which is fine) will make your flanking tank be in risk of not surviving and not killing the calliope when there is a high chance to loose your tank, dooming the game. (2v2 players will understand).

So in summary, what I propose is to keep the calliope the best arty unit in game but low the RNG to wipe squads on the first burst.

Absolutely nice changes, I agree with everything

Next target removing the auto fire from all indirect fire units (mortars, LeIg, Pack Howi) in CoH2 pls, so that players actually need to invest micro to wipe squads instead of setting this unit up and fall asleep in front of your PC and just wait for cheesy wipes