AVRE vs Sturmtiger

I feel there is a huge mis balance between these units. I guess both have their situations and pros and cons but I feel the ST has an unfair advantage for similar units.

The ST shoots further and our of the fog of war, shoot through shot blockers and one shots almost any allied tank

The AVRE yes does have faster auto reload but this thing lobs its round and hits shot blockers. You always know when this thing is shooting at you and cant hide behind. Have any of you also shot an enemy tank direct right on top of it and zero damage was done? Maybe a bug but that is frustrating.

What do you guys think? I think the ST should at least have reduced range or not shoot through walls, its kind of crazy.

AVRE shares the highest HP of any tank, auto reload, isnt easily abandoned and taken, and has faster reload than the ST.
Also it can shoot over shot blockers. Also costs less fuel

AVRE shares the highest HP of any tank, auto reload, isnt easily abandoned and taken, and has faster reload than the ST.
Also it can shoot over shot blockers. Also costs less fuel

I guess the small range of it is what kills it bc easy run away. but the ST is more powerful

I guess the small range of it is what kills it bc easy run away. but the ST is more powerful

you kinda only use AVRE if your enemy is heavy on support weapons. they cant retreat in time to dodge avre, every other unit will dodge it if the playing controlling them has a little bit of awareness.

there were some tourney games featuering avre doing exactly that, killing team weapons en mass.


if you survive with elite panzer doc to the point of ST you kinda deserve the slowly win through nasty out of fog wipes

AVRE shares the highest HP of any tank, auto reload, isnt easily abandoned and taken, and has faster reload than the ST.
Also it can shoot over shot blockers. Also costs less fuel

there's a limit to how high the AVRE can shoot. On the 2v2 refinery the AVRE have problem shooting over many of the taller building.

and despite all the advantages you list, the AVRE is still easier to dodge and deal less damage. A AVRE shooting over a house have to arc their mortar, making it easier for the axis to retreat.

The sturmtiger doesn't give its victim the same courtesy.

Shooting from fog of war > anything.

End of story.

Both units behave like the demo-pack; which means that their design is stupid.

Regardless, the damage of the shell between the two units is worlds apart. This is, literally, like comparing the Puma cannon to the JT cannon.

AVRE:
- 440 damage
- 150 penetration (i.e., has a chance to bounce even on a sherman)
- ~5 lethal radius (kills all infantry within that radius)

Sturmtiger:
- 640 damage (one-shots tanks)
- 1000 penetration (guaranteed penetration)
- 8 lethal radius
- guaranteed wipe on all garrisons within 8 meters
- Inflicts a random critical

iirc (it's been a while, can somebody verify the chances?):
- 10% chance: Main gun destroyed; permanent until repaired
- 20%: heavy engine damage; permanent until repaired
- 30%: immobilize; permanent until repaired
- 40%: crew shock (4 secs)

Thus; the Sturmtiger is actually the game's most preeminent tank-destroyer, and the meta has finally managed to keep up with it:
- Even if you can't oneshoot the tank (say Churchill), the random critical will guarantee that you will score a kill, regardless.
- It is a nightmare to fight against the Sturmtiger in an urban environment (the thing can shoot through buildings, which obstruct your vision)

IMO:
- The AVRE needs a hold fire ability. It's impossible to use this unit in any realistic combat capacity since the turret rotates like a roflcopter. This is long overdue.
- The Sturmtiger could be allowed to retain its alpha damage. However, the permanent criticals are just too much. They need to go; the Sturmtiger has no business killing heavy tanks.
- Prices would have to change to reflect the units' performance. IMO the AVRE is already too cheap fuel-wise, and the ST is way too cheap.

ST is really unfair to play against. especially against maps where victory points have blind spots. u will never see it coming

The Sturmtiger is just plain better. I'm surprised that's even being debated.

Time for a bit of game history to remind people how we got here though. Back at launch the AVRE did 640 a shot but was nerfed using the argument that it shouldn't be able to 1 shot a medium tank. The penetration may also have been nerfed, but I can't find a specific note for that. Currently it sits at 150. The hold fire button was also removed as a "bug fix".

On the other side of things, the Sturmtiger was priced for the OKW taking into account the fuel penalty - but that was removed and the cost of the Sturmtiger remained completely unchanged.

This is how you end up with the sturmtiger being outright better than the AVRE despite costing less (ST: 560/160, AVRE:560/180).

Sturmtiger on trois ponts is the most OP thing ever. Nothing more annoying than having your tanks one shot through the fog of war. Even the jagdtigerin 4v4 will give you the chance to run away.

Sturmtiger on trois ponts is the most OP thing ever. Nothing more annoying than having your tanks one shot through the fog of war. Even the jagdtigerin 4v4 will give you the chance to run away.

I wanted to say this.

I remember one awesome game where my ST had over 100 kills on this map, including 5 tanks

It was once non Doc lol

The ST is a stupidly designed unit as is the AVRE. Neither unit should ever have been brought into multiplayer.

The ST feels completely unfair, and works on a stupid shoot through FoW gimmick. The AVRE is also stupid and effectively just prevents weapon teams from being used.

Smith has made some suggestions, I think they are ok, I would be willing to try them in a balance mod.

Wipey-ness issue surrounding AVRE and Sturmtiger extends to many other abilities in the game:
- AVRE
- Sturmtiger
- Demo Paks
- Goliath
- Stuka Dive bomb

An idea to make these things less wipey, but at the same time, allow them to bleed enemy blobs is the following:
- Reduce raw AoE damage
- Add a critical chance to kill infantry models instantly, depending on range

Thus:
- Between range 0 and 3, all models die (due to raw damage)
- Between range 3 and 5, each model has a 50% chance to die (otherwise, it just takes damage)
- Between range 5 and 8, each model has 25% chance to die
- Ideally, Sturmtiger/AVRE/Stuka-dive bomb could use a small scatter penalty to avoid the issues surrounding pinpoint accuracy.

Heavy blobbers will still receive a massive amount of MP bleed and, some of their squads even have a chance of getting wiped. However, using any of those units/abilities against lone squads will most likely ending up hurting you more, than the enemy.

Range distances and chance percentages are arbitrary, until somebody implements this into a mod and actually tests it.

Given the reload on these units, if they don't have absurd wipe potential, Wouldn't they suck? AFAIK the ST/AVRE don't get a lot of competitive use as it is; it's not like we are suffering through a Sturmtiger versus AVRE meta right now. I'm theory yeah it is a BS unit, but if it were really imbalanced, why is it not more popular?

I think that if we need to take away the wipe potential then it needs a shorter reload, reload while moving, and no more abandon while hit during reload. Something that (realistically) will fire once every 3-4 minutes can't just bleed, it needs to annihilate. It's not like arty that can fire frequently and consistently from a safe position far away.

On the other hand, maybe I've missed it. Show me some high level games with AVRE and ST and I'll concede the point.

The problem isn't wiping, they are supposed to wipe! Stop with the constant nothing should ever be wiped mentality.

The problem is the sturm not giving the player enough warning for the amount of damage they do.

In a recent game I had 2 shermans wiped by a sturmtiger from behind a building when I had no way of even knowing it was on the field yet. How is that fair? The sturm isn't even that expensive.

But if you keep your units farther apart, stay mobile, and scout a little, the ST becomes meh. Yeah if someone is blobbing tanks then it's a hero, but the answer is to stop keeping tanks in stationary blobs. Again, what I would like to see is some examples of this unit being used effectively in a tournament setting

Sturmtiger and AVRE flatly should not be in multiplayer. TBH I'm still kinda shocked that such poorly designed units made it in the game. The sturmtiger is especially bad, since it can be supported by the infrared half track.

If we're going to be stuck with them, then I'd support Mr. Smiths changes. But I'd really prefer to just cut them.

What, you want AVREs one-shotting panthers again like when brits came out?
It has shorter reload AND starts reloading instantly after you shoot. Damage traded for rate of fire, it's better for wiping lone weapons teams and such. It's more use against opponents who are not blobbing.
Also a HUGE perk is that it has a turret. It's really fine.

What, you want AVREs one-shotting panthers again like when brits came out?
It has shorter reload AND starts reloading instantly after you shoot. Damage traded for rate of fire, it's better for wiping lone weapons teams and such. It's more use against opponents who are not blobbing.
Also a HUGE perk is that it has a turret. It's really fine.

In current state, turret is disadvantage and you must be playing agasint brain dead opponent to hit anything on the open field.