Login

russian armor

move stug to tier 2.5?

24 Aug 2016, 07:46 AM
#21
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

The more straightforward to remove the necessity for the Stug is to do what VindicareX indicated.

Moving Stug to 2.5 could be an option only if Ostheer is no longer allowed to skip tiers anymore.

Otherwise, everyone is going to trivially skip T3 and rush T4 for their Brumbarrs:
- The Stug is the star-unit of T3; that's literally the only reason why you want to have T3 up in the end-game (P4? Ostwind? lol)
- The Brumbarr is the star-unit of T4. I don't need to explain to anyone what it does.

Speaking of which, it is now, incidentally, a lot easier to skip tiers as Ostheer.

Before the patch, if you had BP2 researched it used to take:
- 75 fuel to get T3 up
- 150 fuel to get T4 up, if you skipped T3

With the new patch (which reduced the price of the BP upgrades, instead of the buildings themselves), it takes:
- 75 fuel to get T3 up
- 120 fuel to get T4 up if you skip T3

Which means that, currently, it is entirely possible to do this. However, with the current system, skipping T3 means you are going to lose access to Stugs. (and it's not easy to spam Panthers AND Brumbars)

it's 120 fuel after getting t3 (bp2), that's more than enough for all three allied faction to access their tank destroyer and including the brummbar price, get their tank destroyer.

the brummbar and stug are a pretty powerful combo, but all three faction should have access to their TD by then.

and isn't providing flexibility a good thing? wehr late game isn't as spectacular as before.
24 Aug 2016, 07:56 AM
#22
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17


it's 120 fuel after getting t3 (bp2), that's more than enough for all three allied faction to access their tank destroyer and including the brummbar price, get their tank destroyer.


Yeah, but what about side-grades?

Isn't it supposed to be that OST doesn't have to pay to get access to side benefits (nades, fausts, weapon upgrades) in the early game, but they have to pay for higher teching costs to get to the late-game? Wouldn't that sort of change sabotage this arrangement?

(Unless, of course, you are trying to make OST on-par with 81mm mortar USF. In that case, go for it).

you see the problem of a tier if 1 vehicle is moved out and it become useless lol


The Stug is an insanely super-efficient unit that is meant to pick up the slack from the other two units in the same tier. Being able to get the Stug without having to commit to the tier is a bit like having your pie and eating it too.

It's a bit like moving Penals out of T1 (say to T2). Nobody in their right mind would ever, ever, build Soviet T1.
24 Aug 2016, 08:03 AM
#23
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930



Yeah, but what about side-grades?

Isn't it supposed to be that OST doesn't have to pay to get access to side benefits (nades, fausts, weapon upgrades) in the early game, but they have to pay for higher teching costs to get to the late-game? Wouldn't that sort of change sabotage this arrangement?

(Unless, of course, you are trying to make OST on-par with 81mm mortar USF. In that case, go for it)


package deals vs individual items. It's classic pricing tactic for package deal to be cheaper in total since you're buying in bulk. The t2 research is basically the lmg and grenade upgrade for the wehr. The okw's healing truck also pay on this.

The allied individual side tech are more expensive in the long run because the allies can skip them more easily depending on need. The onus is on axis to apply the pressure, in order to slow down allied tech. The british is especially famous for ignoring all their side tech in a team game and rush toward their cromwell or even comet.

the teching on the wehr's early game is still going to be inflexible. It's unlikely people are going to skip the t1 and t2 building (especially if t2 building and t3 research are both required for the stug). By the time the player can chose t3 building or rush toward t4 building, the allies should really have gotten access to their Td.

An important part of player skill is judging what tech you need and don't.
24 Aug 2016, 09:15 AM
#24
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17



package deals vs individual items. It's classic pricing tactic for package deal to be cheaper in total since you're buying in bulk. The t2 research is basically the lmg and grenade upgrade for the wehr. The okw's healing truck also pay on this.


That makes sense. However, in the new arrangement, would you ever see yourself actually building the T3 building, or would you almost always rush for T4? I know I would always do the latter.

With a bit of assistance from the following call-in units, skipping T3 might become the next no-brainer strategy to use:
- Stug-E
- Command P4 (thankfully not just Mobile Defence though)

Finally, this is going to be a massive buff to holdout-to-Tiger doctrines:
- Mechanized Assault
- (maybe lightning war too?)
24 Aug 2016, 11:11 AM
#25
avatar of Highfiveeeee

Posts: 1740

Just nerf light vehicles so Shreks and Paks actually work.


This is it.
In addition to the mortar which makes German support troops useless on its own, T70 is way to strong. Almost every shot is a model kill, its extremely fast and can survive 3 pak shots with self repair.

If the enemy is not totally stupid and gets fausted or drives over a tellermine, there is nothing Germans can do to get that thing while it keeps harrassing everywhere.

Germans in theory have great counters with the Raketenwerfer and especially the PaK40. But they miss so many shots and their aim time is way too slow.

PaKs imo need a buff, lower their aim time, a little bit for all Paks and a huge bit more for the Raketenwerfer.
24 Aug 2016, 11:14 AM
#26
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

Another idea could be to give the 2.5 Stug a debuff, for as long as the T3 is not up:
- Make the TWP ability unavailable
- Reduce Stug damage from 160 to 120 (same as SU-76 / Puma / AEC) (maybe penetration too?)

The debuff will go away the moment the OST player actually builds the T3.

The idea is that, although OST does need an anti-light vehicle counter to anti-cheese itself from the 222, the Stug is a god, and it shouldn't be handed down so easily.
24 Aug 2016, 11:39 AM
#27
avatar of Ful4n0

Posts: 345



LT (280 mp 25 fuel): m20 (skirt locked), 50cal, 57mm, pack howitzer

captain: stuart, m17 AAHT, m20 armor skirt

remove mortar

the USF can get their support weapon relatively early through the LT with m20 support and either get the captain or skip it entirely.



noob here, i like your suggestions, but one question arise in my mind after reading this....how is USF supposed to counter OST LV then??? if you delay Stuart, OST players are going to rush 222 or 444 and then, what should do USF Player???

I mean, if pak mines and shreks are not enough for OST to counter STUART, how should USF player in your opinion counter 222 or 444 with no mines, 57mm, and maybe one zook from m20 crew????

noob here, just asking....
24 Aug 2016, 11:48 AM
#28
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930



This is it.
In addition to the mortar which makes German support troops useless on its own, T70 is way to strong. Almost every shot is a model kill, its extremely fast and can survive 3 pak shots with self repair.

If the enemy is not totally stupid and gets fausted or drives over a tellermine, there is nothing Germans can do to get that thing while it keeps harrassing everywhere.

Germans in theory have great counters with the Raketenwerfer and especially the PaK40. But they miss so many shots and their aim time is way too slow.

PaKs imo need a buff, lower their aim time, a little bit for all Paks and a huge bit more for the Raketenwerfer.


a faction without access to any light armor is going to be at a disadvantage against those who do, unless their atw is really really "practical".

ironically the USF is the faction best equipped at facing light vehicle with only infantry and support weapons. Bazooka, 57mm and the rifle at nade are all technically inferior to the wehr counter part, but is yet more practical in general. (having a 5 men squad helps as well)

and interesting that you think pak need a lower aim time. Their current aim time is .125 seconds, and it's unaffected by distance.
24 Aug 2016, 11:51 AM
#29
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

Another idea could be to give the 2.5 Stug a debuff, for as long as the T3 is not up:
- Make the TWP ability unavailable
- Reduce Stug damage from 160 to 120 (same as SU-76 / Puma / AEC) (maybe penetration too?)

The debuff will go away the moment the OST player actually builds the T3.

The idea is that, although OST does need an anti-light vehicle counter to anti-cheese itself from the 222, the Stug is a god, and it shouldn't be handed down so easily.


I don't really like Stug on T2.5, stug is a pure AT unit that deal close to no damage to infantry and it has too much armor at this stage of the game. It is like a pack on wheel but with a fuel cost. This idea will completely shutdown Ostheer T3 play. And nerfing it in exchange, well what do you want to nerf? Damage = will be back to the list of useless unit. Armor, you can already circle it quite easily.

Imo, Relic should remove the 222, put back the original scout car with no upgrade, dedicated to give vision and kill snipers. And add the panzerIII like many suggested before, the PanzerIII should be something equivalent to the Stuart, deal damage but not too much.

Or simply nerf T-70 and Stuart damage vs infantry. imo, as option: nerfing accuracy on the move would do great. Nerfing acceleration speed so it become much more difficult to kite squads.
24 Aug 2016, 11:57 AM
#30
avatar of Ful4n0

Posts: 345


ironically the USF is the faction best equipped at facing light vehicle with only infantry and support weapons. Bazooka, 57mm and the rifle at nade are all technically inferior to the wehr counter part, but is yet more practical in general. (having a 5 men squad helps as well)


Could you expand on "all technically inferior to the wehr counter part, but is yet more practical in general"????


Then, if only advantage is that rifles has 5 models, even having less tools than OST to fight LV (mines) and worse handle AT, give panzergrenaiders a fifth model when upgrading to shreck...easier than moving units and all that you are proposing....shouldn´t be better????



and in addition:

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Aug 2016, 11:39 AMFul4n0



noob here, i like your suggestions, but one question arise in my mind after reading this....how is USF supposed to counter OST LV then??? if you delay Stuart, OST players are going to rush 222 or 444 and then, what should do USF Player???

I mean, if pak mines and shreks are not enough for OST to counter STUART, how should USF player in your opinion counter 222 or 444 with no mines, 57mm, and maybe one zook from m20 crew????

noob here, just asking....


24 Aug 2016, 12:36 PM
#31
avatar of Fino

Posts: 191

Add Panzer III.


They "need" to make a model for it first,so far it uses the Panzer 4 one,and that would confuse people.
aaa
24 Aug 2016, 12:40 PM
#32
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1487

insane. doesnt evven worth reply
24 Aug 2016, 13:25 PM
#33
avatar of aomsinzana

Posts: 284 | Subs: 1

Its already have model name Pz III in WorldBuilder ... but same model as Pz IV asuf.A FailFish
24 Aug 2016, 18:22 PM
#34
avatar of United

Posts: 253

people would just skip tier 2 for tier 3/heavies every single time.
24 Aug 2016, 18:32 PM
#35
avatar of strafniki

Posts: 558 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Aug 2016, 02:19 AMaaa
OH dont pay anything for their unit unlock aleready. Move 222 and 251 to tier 2.5.

To hardcounter t70 OH need 1 222 and 1 mg.


watch out, allied fanboy has spoken TriHard
24 Aug 2016, 19:18 PM
#36
avatar of luq1608

Posts: 117

can a light tank destroyer Hetzer
24 Aug 2016, 21:26 PM
#37
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1

Or, nerf units that are clearly over performing rather than messing with units that don't need messing.



Now dare you say such logic
24 Aug 2016, 21:37 PM
#38
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



watch out, allied fanboy has spoken TriHard
don't waste your time still don't get why mod don't ban him maybe he is donating ?
24 Aug 2016, 22:16 PM
#39
avatar of DAZ187

Posts: 466

lets be realistic, you guys are reaching very high if u think relic will balance this anytime soon.

Sad truth
24 Aug 2016, 23:25 PM
#40
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

Or, nerf units that are clearly over performing rather than messing with units that don't need messing.





Now dare you say such logic


logically, how much nerfing do you think the stuart and t70 is going to need in order to accommodate the wehr? do you think they would even be good against the puma, luch, and the stug E afterward? (the stug E cost 200 75 fuel, almost the same as the t70).

it would require moving the scale for basically every light armor in the game.

even just lacking a light vehicle like the wehr is a huge weakness.


1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

1128 users are online: 1128 guests
0 post in the last 24h
10 posts in the last week
26 posts in the last month
Registered members: 50000
Welcome our newest member, qq801
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM