What does 'flame damage normalized' actually mean?

OP= overpowered or overperforming


From there the discussion goes like:
HE thinks that the Croc might be OP but you jump saying that if he thinks so, then both KV8 and Croc should be OP as they have equal damage and are armored (wrong).

Just admit that you were wrong on thinking that equal damage means = DPS.

To make an example: Think about having CE mosins deal 8 dmg, Conscripts 12dmg and Guards 16dmg. Then Relic comes and makes all mosins deal 16dmg but they just nerf cooldowns, reload and accuracy on CE and Conscripts to keep the same damage output. Something simil happened with flame weapons.

Anyways, back into OP:
Just refer to what @Smith posted. If you want an opinion, the Hetzer is crap and the rest of the vehicles are fine.

Ever heard of sarcasm? And again, where am I accusing him of saying that the KV8 is OP? Not me saying it's OP, accusing HIM of saying it?

There's a difference, and if you think I'm nitpicking well then you're free to surrender and stop arguing with me then

On topic: Both are armored and both are very dangerous to infantry, I've noticed BOTH fry infantry and weapon crews alike in seconds, the Churchill IS the better Flamethrower tank unit of the 2 but the KV8 is the second best, all others pale in comparison to those 2.

And until someone shows some actual proof that the Churchill Croc is OP compared to the KV8 (a video showing the exact same scenario played by both tanks) I think this topic is done. Have a nice day.

The fact that somebody has the word "australian" in his nick, doesn't mean he is australian yet, just saying

+1

Hetzer should have the stats of KV-8 on its flamer. Problem solved.

I actually think the flamer on the hetzer is fine. It's the Kv-8 and croc over performing.

I actually think the flamer on the hetzer is fine. It's the Kv-8 and croc over performing.

It's true that croc is an ultimate machine of doom for infantry but it also comes very late, at the same time as its hardcounters, JT and Ele, so it has in fact no window of opportunity. At the same time its light counters: stug and JP4, are both available much earlier and for fraction of the price they are worth. People just have to learn to expect the croc and not rely on infantry based AT to much unless they are sure there is no croc coming from brit player, especially in 1v1.

As for KV-8 it was really OP in some patches, but right now it feels ok imo. Thanks to its unique flamethrower damage profile, it is more a tool to make enemy squads retreat than a wiping machine, if you don't let it attack you at HQ, it most likely is not going to kill any model that has full health. The dot damage simply means it is not that good at chasing retreating squads.

And here is my only concern about giving hetzer the kv-8 flamer - the hetzer has quite good top mg, that seems to be really good for chasing squads. If it got the kv-8 flamer, it should probably loose the ability to shoot that mg. Maybe it would be good idea to give it option to either upgrade to top mg or to better flamer.

At the same time it would be also usefull to think about hetzer vet. Its something that we don't look seriously at, becouse its hard to even get to vet1 with it, but it has 5 stars of really powerfull vet, including flamer buffs. This should probably be changed, mostly into defencive buffs.

I think the croc and kv-8 are strong as they are currently because they had to fight schreck blob.

Now that the schreck blob is gone, the croc need a nerf.

I think the croc and kv-8 are strong as they are currently because they had to fight schreck blob.

Now that the schreck blob is gone, the croc need a nerf.

They were also used vs ost.

Shreck blobs are no excuse here, sorry.

They both had a fair share of nerfs.

Just don't use infantry against them and make sure you have armor by 8/13CP, which isn't that hard to do.

They were also used vs ost.

Shreck blobs are no excuse here, sorry.

They both had a fair share of nerfs.

Just don't use infantry against them and make sure you have armor by 8/13CP, which isn't that hard to do.

the fact that the croc fight the 4 men ost is all the more fact to nerf the croc

the fact that the croc fight the 4 men ost is all the more fact to nerf the croc

Still, there is no excuse to not be prepared for 13CP slow, AI only 230 fuel tank.

Still, there is no excuse to not be prepared for 13CP slow, AI only 230 fuel tank.

even with dedicated purpose tank, there's still a limit to how powerful something should be.

even with dedicated purpose tank, there's still a limit to how powerful something should be.

Like with axis super heavy TDs 100% penetration on everything?
Sturmtiger one shotting mediums and wiping squads from outside of LOS anyone?

Weapon teams are indeed screwed by croc, but its not going to run down normal infantry unless it cuts their retreat route.

There is also a limit to how expensive a unit should be if you want to constantly drop its effectiveness.
Croc so far got 7 nerfs.

It can get only so much before price/CP drop is mandatory.

Again, we're talking here very late game 230 fuel AI only vehicle that can't engage anything other then infantry.

Super heavy tank destroyers are excused to obliterate their targets, but short range, slow, most expensive AI tank isn't supposed to do the same vs its dedicated target?

The Flammhetzer may have the same flame damage as the Croc and the Kv8 but like others have said there are other values that affect damage but in my opinion the biggest reason that the Flammhetzer isnt viable is because it has low armor and hp which means that it can be easily penned from the front by bazookas and piats and it cant avoid the rounds or kite because it has no turret so it must face the infantry at all times without any chance to dodge projectiles. Flame weapons dont have value with burst damage but rather with damage over time so they are only useful if they can stay in a fight but the Flammhetzer is forced to back off way more often because it isnt a damage sponge like the Croc and Kv8 and because of its lower armor it will take even more damage than the Kv8 and the Croc and because it has no turret one must be much more careful when picking a path to engage a squad.

What I think needs to happen is that either the Flammhetzer needs a price decrease or the Flammhetzer needs to have its dps increased (not sure which stats should be changed though) and either its armor needs a buff or its hp needs to be increased (not to the levels of the Croc or Kv8) because it really sucks that infantry can actually successfully throw off an attack by an expensive AI specialist vehicle so easily.

Still, there is no excuse to not be prepared for 13CP slow, AI only 230 fuel tank.

croc can switch to a normal gun for AT aswell, it shows you don't even play the game. What ex-communist country are you from btw?

croc can switch to a normal gun for AT aswell, it shows you don't even play the game. What ex-communist country are you from btw?

Not really the crocs main gun is a clone of the Cromwell however only doing 80 damage instead of the 160, yes it can be used for AT but it isn't effective at AT unless going against lower health units (scout-cars,luchs halftracks etc) but even then the rate of fire lets it down in for it's damage, especially when compared to a T70, valentine, puma etc.

croc can switch to a normal gun for AT aswell, it shows you don't even play the game. What ex-communist country are you from btw?

The main gun on the standard Churchill is a slower-firing (roughly 20% longer reload) version of the Cromwell's main gun. The cannon on the Churchill Crocodile is a half-damage version of the standard Churchill's gun. If you have a look at the stats, you'll notice that the Valentine has better AT DPS.

More importantly, the Croc's main gun doesn't respond to attack orders so getting it to target anything it could actually hurt is a matter of luck.

the hetzer does need a buff. KV8 and Croc I think are probably fine, if anything they could use a slight dps decrease while the hetzer gets a boost.

Churchills and Crocs require multiple StuGs to defeat reliable or cost effectively.

So you have to get the StuGs out preemptively. You have to have the counters out on the field before the British player decides to build a unit you already have the hard counters to. Plus the StuGs need to be already vet 1 at this time. (At least if they aren't the first engagement with a CroC will feed enough xp into the StuGs for it.)

Problem is StuGs are pretty much food for every British tank that isn't a Churchill variant. In addition, the Croc can pretty much ignore a quick P4 or P5 and go about its business clearing team weapons and crews, even under fire since they simply can't deal enough damage or use Target Weak Point.

The situation is a bit different versus Soviets and their KV8, namely because the stock soviet tanks can be handled by the gambit of Axis armor. A P4 or P5 can be cost effective in that situation since the KV8 doesn't have such a ridiculous health pool, and there's no speedy Cromwells, Fireflies with tulips, or Comets. Soviet armor doesn't have the kind of range, firepower, or shock value as the British, and their timing and availability are much more restricted.

Churchills and Crocs require multiple StuGs to defeat reliable or cost effectively.

So you have to get the StuGs out preemptively. You have to have the counters out on the field before the British player decides to build a unit you already have the hard counters to. Plus the StuGs need to be already vet 1 at this time. (At least if they aren't the first engagement with a CroC will feed enough xp into the StuGs for it.)

Problem is StuGs are pretty much food for every British tank that isn't a Churchill variant. In addition, the Croc can pretty much ignore a quick P4 or P5 and go about its business clearing team weapons and crews, even under fire since they simply can't deal enough damage or use Target Weak Point.

The situation is a bit different versus Soviets and their KV8, namely because the stock soviet tanks can be handled by the gambit of Axis armor. A P4 or P5 can be cost effective in that situation since the KV8 doesn't have such a ridiculous health pool, and there's no speedy Cromwells, Fireflies with tulips, or Comets. Soviet armor doesn't have the kind of range, firepower, or shock value as the British, and their timing and availability are much more restricted.

The problem I have with the croc is just it's high health. It can stay in the range of a P5 for ages, let alone a shitty p4. The best thing against it I find is a Jagdtiger.

But all in all I say it's fine, even though I never liked the 'At gun wall + flametank' cheese. Shame OKW Hetzer sucks dick so much.

The problem I have with the croc is just it's high health. It can stay in the range of a P5 for ages, let alone a shitty p4. The best thing against it I find is a Jagdtiger.

But all in all I say it's fine, even though I never liked the 'At gun wall + flametank' cheese. Shame OKW Hetzer sucks dick so much.

Wrong, the best thing against it is a pair of StuGs which will make it their bitch in seconds.

It doesn't have much armor, but HP, you don't need high penetration, but rate of fire against it.

To think almost one year people would learn that RoF>penetration vs low armor high health units....

He was responding to my post, where I had just explained that. I don't think he was disagreeing with that assessment at all. You don't need to jump down throats so quickly.

The JT does more damage than StuGs per shot, which can really help. Not to mention its got the range to potentially take it out as it tries to escape. Plus, he's speaking of OKW, not Ostheer. Try getting StuGs with OKW.

:|

It doesn't have much armor, but HP, you don't need high penetration, but rate of fire against it.

Funny how in WWII Churchill mk. VII had even more armor than the Tiger (reports of it having bounced some 80 PaK shots), but in this game it has medium-level armor.

I'm not saying Churchill should get a significant armor increase, but at least relic should normalize armor and health a bit (thus reducing vet feed). And make its main gun the same stats as the Cromwell's, so that it won't still be overshadowed by the Comet even after its supposed recent "buff" this patch.