Ostheer Panther Moving Accuracy

Allies actually did used gun stabilizers, therefore better moving accuracy then axis.
Plus, allies have generally weaker armor and penetration(unless its TD), which relies on flanking, therefore the need for that accuracy.

Basically, what kitekaze said.

Arent you the first one to point out historical reasoning is bullocks?
Btw does the m4 sherman, t34/85 and Cromwell really have so much less of armor and Pen then ost p4 and okw p4? I dont know the stats but they all seem pretty even when it comes down to Pen and armor.

I would like to kindly note that there are several to moving inaccuracy:
- Moving accuracy penalty (obvious)
- Moving scatter penalty
- Base accuracy
- Base scatter profile (especially horizontal scatter)

The OKW Panther is the exception to most of the rules here:
- It gets a 0.65 moving accuracy modifier (which sits between USF/UKF tanks and Axis/Soviet tanks)
- It gets an 1.7 scatter penalty modifier (USF tanks get 1.5; everybody else gets 2.0)
- Base accuracy*; all tanks are different. Somebody pointed out that OKW Panther has better base accuracy than OST Panther
- (not to mention OKW blitz lolbonuses)

Cromwell/Comet exception:
- Base scatter*: Most tanks have 7.5 degree angle. Cromwell/Comet get a 6 degree angle

* don't trust stat.coh2.hu on this. For some reason (I don't understand) they decided to present rounded results for accuracy, and they don't present horizontal accuracy at all.

1) Imo, if the OST Panther really requires a buff, this is one of the healthier buffs to award:
- If you are worried that you won't be able to bumrush Panthers with mediums anymore, I don't think anything really will change. Most of the times, when you are swarming, the Panther is moving backwards, and most of its scatter rolls will hit you in the face (while your scatter rolls will land short)

The Panther's mediocre reload speed will be the balancing factor in this.

2) The other route is to pillage OST Panther's veterancy bonuses, and make some of them arrive earlier, and some of them arrive later (like the Jackson).

Bear in mind that a Vet2 Panther has statistically equal survivability to any of the Churchills, while not being constrained by speed, or a crappy gun.

Panther accuracy on the move should be even increased to 0.75. Rof isn't that high to make this unit op by this change. Relic should put this change in next balance preview

Arent you the first one to point out historical reasoning is bullocks?

Hence the first line of my post wasn't the only line

Btw does the m4 sherman, t34/85 and Cromwell really have so much less of armor and Pen then ost p4 and okw p4? I dont know the stats but they all seem pretty even when it comes down to Pen and armor.

That really depends, out of the gate they are pretty much similar, not sure why you'd mention 34/85 instead of 34/76 if we want to talk stock tanks, but doctrinal 34/85 still have only 0.5 moving acc.

OKW P4 is really no contest here, allied stock meds have nothing on its 234 armor, Ost P4 needs vet2 for that, so at vet 0-1 its pretty much equal to crom and M4 with slight advantage in the armor vs pen(outcome RNG dependent with ost P4 having slightly better odds), but at vet2 its just one sided steamroll again.

So, OKW P4 is just plain superior and ost one needs vet2 to reach that state.

Similar relations of Panthers vs Comet or Pershing with Panthers having a clear edge, although vetted Pershing fares vs vetted Panther much better then vetted Comet for the RoF vet alone.

This change is not going to affect anything, imo.

It's still locked in Ost t4 and the bonuses discussed here are miniscule.

People seem to be getting too buff happy. The most is a moving accuracy buff.

It doesn't need a reload buff, or a damage buff.

The panther needs a total revamp. As a mobile tank hunter it doesn't need that long range and such a massive health pool. With those features nerfed, it Will be safe to increase its damage output.


Suggestion;

• Reduce the hitpoints to 640
  
• Increase the damage to 200
  
• Reduce its range to 40
  
• Remove the MG42 upgrade and replace it with a dummy tank commander (already upgraded with)
  
  

There, a highly mobile tank hunter. Now there is an incentive to build it instead of going 2xsugs.

The panther needs a total revamp. As a mobile tank hunter it doesn't need that long range and such a massive health pool. With those features nerfed, it Will be safe to increase its damage output.


Suggestion;

• Reduce the hitpoints to 640
  
• Increase the damage to 200
  
• Reduce its range to 40
  
• Remove the MG42 upgrade and replace it with a dummy tank commander (already upgraded with)
  
  

There, a highly mobile tank hunter. Now there is an incentive to build it instead of going 2xsugs.

That's an interesting route to take. It will also give OST Panthers a unique 'feel' over OKW Panthers (as opposed to one being strictly inferior to the other).

However, in order for this to not look like an overnerf:
- You should probably set damage to 240 (medium tanks won't care much if you deal 160 damage or 200 damage vs them) -- the range nerf is already significant.
- With the MG nerf you are already severely reducing the AI potential of the tank.
- The Panther could maintain its 800 healthpool, provided it loses its vet2 bonus.

Allies actually did used gun stabilizers, therefore better moving accuracy then axis.
Plus, allies have generally weaker armor and penetration(unless its TD), which relies on flanking, therefore the need for that accuracy.

Basically, what kitekaze said.

what's this ?! Katiof got account hacked he would never buff tank

I just don´t get the design:

OKW Panther is stronger and comes out way earlier. The faction is supposed to be good early. Ostheer on the other hand is designed to excell in the lategame. They don´t have much more. But they get the weaker Panther version and they get it later.

This is not compensated by the increased fuel cost on the OKW Panther. If at all the Ostheer one should be the stronger unit as it is locked behind a late tier. Yet it is weaker.

A weaker Panther that comes later is bad design imo. If we are talking about the super-lategame (where Ostheer is supposed to be good) the +25 fuel more on the OKW version are neglectable. The performance is all that matters at that point.

I don't see any reason to get a Panther in a 1v1 as Ostheer, it isn't worth its price, neither is it worth the teching price.

Arent you the first one to point out historical reasoning is bullocks?
Btw does the m4 sherman, t34/85 and Cromwell really have so much less of armor and Pen then ost p4 and okw p4? I dont know the stats but they all seem pretty even when it comes down to Pen and armor.

1st off, I thought Kaitof-Kenobi was arguing with himself, And I felt really conflicted about my sanity.

2nd, it may seem similar, but with vet, p4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all allied mediums except vetted e8.

However, in order for this to not look like an overnerf:
- You should probably set damage to 240 (medium tanks won't care much if you deal 160 damage or 200 damage vs them) -- the range nerf is already significant. {240 is too much and should remain exclusive to heavy TDs or super heavies IMO. But you are right regarding the effectiveness against mediums}
- With the MG nerf you are already severely reducing the AI potential of the tank.{It is barely used as AI, like IRL, and it is just a gimmick IMO, specially that late into a game}
- The Panther could maintain its 800 healthpool, provided it loses its vet2 bonus.{vet 2 bonuses can remain, while the stock health pool is reduced to 640}

but with vet, p4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all allied mediums except vetted e8.

I would happily trade those golden vet bounses with a massive price reduction.

oh another case where us and ukf is much better than other factions.

I would happily trade those golden vet bounses with a massive price reduction.

T34/76

Manpower= 300
Fuel= 80

T34/85

Manpower= 380
Fuel= 130

Sherman (Non E8)

Manpower= 340
Fuel= 110

OST P4

Manpower= 350
Fuel= 125

P4 also has 20 higher frontal armor and 10 higher rear armor than the T34/85 and sherman. while the T34/76 has 0.2 faster speed and acceleration than P4.

I actually watched this game through momo's stream Dat su85 moving accuracy better than a Panther's. a fuckin. reversing. su85. Panther still can't beat a moving su85.

Though a 10% increase? This is why your T3/T4 "buffs" didn't do sht for Ostheer is because miniscule buffs like these won't make much of a difference if the units you buff only get to be 10% less useless (granted you really don't want to do classic Relic overbuff either, but still). If Panther were to get seriously reworked to something useful, then they would need : 75% moving accuracy fitting for a mobile tank hunter, a reload time decrease of 1-2 seconds, and change of vet 2 armor (redundant on already well armored vehicle) to reload bonus instead.

Weird, my friend, who is top player, complaint why StuG and Brummbar are UP but Panther is opposite.

> top player
> StuG "UP"
> wutface.jpg

Isn't StuG one of the only reasons why people can't openly say that Ostheer is a dead faction right now? Coz StuG is the only good stock tank destroyer Ostheer has right now anyway.

I just don´t get the design:
OKW Panther is stronger and comes out way earlier. The faction is supposed to be good early. Ostheer on the other hand is designed to excell in the lategame. They don´t have much more. But they get the weaker Panther version and they get it later.

Well said mate!

> top player
> StuG "UP"
> wutface.jpg
Isn't StuG one of the only reasons why people can't openly say that Ostheer is a dead faction right now? Coz StuG is the only good stock tank destroyer Ostheer has right now anyway.

+1
StuG is love, StuG is life.

-1

I think the replies here have raised logical valid points on the current state of play. The axis tanks appear balanced this way for a reason.

Accuracy alone wont do anything.Need reload or dmg.