OKW Infantry

Now you know the SU struggle with conscripts.

I can't wait for you to tell me otherwise.

Except that:

• Con Spam is sorta effective
  
• PSSHS
  
• SU has riflemen now
  
• Eliete Jesus troops and Guards at CP 2
  
• Spamable MGs
  

Volks are extremely powerful right now. Losing them late game is punishment. Squad survival is rewarded. How is a Soviet player supposed to get cons to vet 3 when they get wiped after the 10 minute mark? Meanwhile they feed out vet. I have not found volks vetting too slowly at all. If you miss healing you are free to drop med kits, remember many OKW units (including volks) get healing with vet so you only need to do this for a short period of the game.

Obers are expensive, you need at most 1 squad. In some games you may not even need them. They exist for a specific reason, dealing with elite infantry behind a cheaper infantry unit. Their vet prevents their price from decreasing. Some of their vet levels are insanely good and they have a huge range of abilities. They truly reward excellent play.

Sturms probably have too much on their plate, but the fear of light vehicles eating up OKW without the shrek is at least reasonable to me. Until such time as another solution is found they will need to hold the shrek. Having said that, they can easily reach vet 5 now, and at this point they can function as almost instant repair stations for any tank.

MG34 is fine, plays well, and fills its role. It is a cheap, static, MG capable of controlling blobs and letting volks chew threw them with upgrades.

Wow finally a decent reply that isnt vitriolic and full of bad comparisons.

Right now as you mention sturms do alot so much to point I loath the need to pump out volks to help maintain cap pressure. Sturms seem to offer more then volks, unless it is a garrison heavy map.

You do however make it seem that T1 is irrelevant, is this acceptable for an entire tier to be at best, it seems, a back tech option? Is there a way to make T1 relevant into the meta without pissing off fans of every other faction?

SO ok, why don't we put ambulance behind lieutenant tier? There is literally no good reason why it should be locked behind tech, no other faction has it. What makes it worse is that t1 is useless, and you are completely open to light vehicles, which you cannot counter without a puma, unless you (lol) invest into 2 spios.

I understand why people got annoyed about volksgrenadier schreks, but this healing tech locking is just stupid. Spio healing is also locked behind vet 1, and good luck getting spios to vet 1 without healing. If the damage is spread equally between the models they are useless. They also don't heal properly.

OKW is massively disadvantaged in this way, they always were, but its made much worse by the fact that the upgrades are now purchasable. That is all fine, but don't lock them behind specific techs. Perhaps it should be changed that whenever you tech one of the two becomes available.

that is debatable but it is a good point. OKW having to have to commit to a tier to get a healing is a big design idea that impacts the faction immensely. It might be flawed.. i think it would be easy to make a case against it.

but the thing that do not help this argument to go forward, after obvious blaming fanboys, is that this was the case since the beginning. how come this has only come to attention now? it also does not help that people argue OKW healing costs 400mp and 70fu or whatever(truck+setup+upgrade). that means it costed 300mp and 55fu before, which nobody ever argued for...

Volks don't need a buff, but it would be nice to have a free weapon slot after upgrade so dropped weapons can be recovered.
Sturmpioneers with mine detector and shrek should be a thing like it was for the entire patch beta. It wasn't an issue then so I'm not sure why it was removed. Just make sure the shrek and flamer can't be upgraded together; that was overlooked during the beta probably because no one ever used that commander.

Except that:

• Con Spam is sorta effective
  
• PSSHS
  
• SU has riflemen now
  
• Eliete Jesus troops and Guards at CP 2
  
• Spamable MGs
  

* Kinda like how Volks are sorta effective now
* MP44s! (PPSh doc)
* Cant have this and MGs unless you want armor delay
* Elite OKW callins and Obersdatns
* Spam MG-34

but the thing that do not help this argument to go forward, after obvious blaming fanboys, is that this was the case since the beginning. how come this has only come to attention now? it also does not help that people argue OKW healing costs 400mp and 70fu or whatever(truck+setup+upgrade)

First and foremost, your understanding of the game is flawed due to excessive bias.


Secondly if you read the patch notes thoroughly you will realize that you have to invest an additional 100mp-15F for medics.

First and foremost, your understanding of the game is flawed due to excessive bias.


Secondly if you read the patch notes thoroughly you will realize that you have to invest an additional 100mp-15F for medics.

read pls. i even used bold so ppl won't get confused.. but oh well

I explained as why it is a problem now.

I explained as why it is a problem now.

100 mp and 15 fuel is your explanation of why it is a problem now and it wasn´t a problem in the past?? so, paying for medics is the problem now???? lol, that is a problem all others factions have since the beggining (paying for healing).

100 mp and 15 fuel is your explanation of why it is a problem now and it wasn´t a problem in the past?? so, paying for medics is the problem now???? lol, that is a problem all others factions have since the beggining (paying for healing).

Brits pay 35 muni while OKW and USF pay fuel and mp (the ambulance is overpriced as fuck as well).


Also the inferior, unhealthy deutsch Untermensch need medics and healing as fast as possible and more than any other faction.

Brits pay 35 muni while OKW and USF pay fuel and mp (the ambulance is overpriced as fuck as well).


Also the inferior, unhealthy deutsch Untermensch need medics and healing as fast as possible and more than any other faction.

yeah I know that, this game is full of differences as it is designed that way...

UKF has to tech to get engineers and so, repairs....

USF and UKF has to pay fuel to unlock weapon racks and then have to pay muni for each weapon, while OKW only pay muni...

Osther has t0 mg..

OKW has t0 atgun than can cloack, garrison and retreat and no other atgun can...

USF can decrew their vehicles and repair them without engineers,

SU has the only "offensive" mg in the game...


and so on...

that doesn´t mean game is imbalanced....problem?

that is debatable but it is a good point. OKW having to have to commit to a tier to get a healing is a big design idea that impacts the faction immensely. It might be flawed.. i think it would be easy to make a case against it.

but the thing that do not help this argument to go forward, after obvious blaming fanboys, is that this was the case since the beginning. how come this has only come to attention now? it also does not help that people argue OKW healing costs 400mp and 70fu or whatever(truck+setup+upgrade). that means it costed 300mp and 55fu before, which nobody ever argued for...

Two points:

1) Right at the beginning with original OKW design it was fine because the teching system was quite different, so it didn't really matter. Also t2 was pretty much dead, you would always go t1 first. It wasn't and issue then.

2) After the rework: Just because no one complained about it did not mean that it was an issue. It was still incredible annoying to backtech to a useless tier if going t2, just to get healing. The difference between OKW and other factions (like British) is that teching is incidental to healing- ie. you don't tech to t1 to upgrade to healing packs, you tech to t1 because you can't win a game playing only t0. THe only reason you teched as OKW was to get healing, so you are essentially paying a ridiculous price just for this.You also forget that before this patch, you could just get panzerschrecks on volks, so it did not matter that you had no puma. Now you have no puma and you have massive issues countering light vehicles. The problem with that is that you have no healing.

It should also be said that when repair and healing was free it actually increased your flexibility a fair bit. Now you pay 200 MP and 30 fuel to get both, which slows you down. Buying repair is hardly ever worth it because it delays healing even more. Not having healing is actually incredibly crippling to your infantry, because you are basically hoping to lose models to regain health. Otherwise you cannot compete with allied infantry who all have healing available from a much earlier stage.

Basically, it did not matter before because t1 was not as useless because you could counter light vehicles with volks. Backteching was annoying, sure, but it was not as difficult to overcome as it is now. Its just a limitation which is still there because of initial faction design. This has changed so much now to the extent that the limitation is completely arbitrary. There is no good positive reason why healing should be locked behind tech, and I think it is one of the biggest things holding back OKW atm.

Alternatively you could of course buff the units in t1 (so basically the flack halftrack) and change its role maybe to one where it slightly counters light vehicles. The problem is atm that the unit is incredibly fragile and by the time you get it, its counters (AEC and Stuart) are basically out. Its ok against the soviets though because it actually does reasonably well against a t70, although it is quite easy to catch out with at granades. The problem with this approach is that it might make t2 obsolete.

Anyway, I don't see how you can currently argue against this stupid restriction on healing.

Maybe Zyllen will listen now to an actual seasoned strategist.

+1

Everybody can become a strategist on this forum that green tag means nothing.

But he has not yet explained why the volks with inferior baseline stats vet and weapons are Extremely powerful . your better of using sp's

Everybody can become a strategist on this forum that green tag means nothing.

I challenge you to prove that statement by becoming one.

But he has not yet explained why the volks with inferior baseline stats vet and weapons are Extremely powerful . your better of using sp's

You should, for a change, try to play AGAINST them and judge for yourself how strong they can be once vetted.

Two points:

1) Right at the beginning with original OKW design it was fine because the teching system was quite different, so it didn't really matter. Also t2 was pretty much dead, you would always go t1 first. It wasn't and issue then.

2) After the rework: Just because no one complained about it did not mean that it was an issue. It was still incredible annoying to backtech to a useless tier if going t2, just to get healing. The difference between OKW and other factions (like British) is that teching is incidental to healing- ie. you don't tech to t1 to upgrade to healing packs, you tech to t1 because you can't win a game playing only t0. THe only reason you teched as OKW was to get healing, so you are essentially paying a ridiculous price just for this.You also forget that before this patch, you could just get panzerschrecks on volks, so it did not matter that you had no puma. Now you have no puma and you have massive issues countering light vehicles. The problem with that is that you have no healing.

It should also be said that when repair and healing was free it actually increased your flexibility a fair bit. Now you pay 200 MP and 30 fuel to get both, which slows you down. Buying repair is hardly ever worth it because it delays healing even more. Not having healing is actually incredibly crippling to your infantry, because you are basically hoping to lose models to regain health. Otherwise you cannot compete with allied infantry who all have healing available from a much earlier stage.

Basically, it did not matter before because t1 was not as useless because you could counter light vehicles with volks. Backteching was annoying, sure, but it was not as difficult to overcome as it is now. Its just a limitation which is still there because of initial faction design. This has changed so much now to the extent that the limitation is completely arbitrary. There is no good positive reason why healing should be locked behind tech, and I think it is one of the biggest things holding back OKW atm.

Alternatively you could of course buff the units in t1 (so basically the flack halftrack) and change its role maybe to one where it slightly counters light vehicles. The problem is atm that the unit is incredibly fragile and by the time you get it, its counters (AEC and Stuart) are basically out. Its ok against the soviets though because it actually does reasonably well against a t70, although it is quite easy to catch out with at granades. The problem with this approach is that it might make t2 obsolete.

Anyway, I don't see how you can currently argue against this stupid restriction on healing.

This

+1

Make T1 viable. My problems with OKW can easily be overlooked if you give me a choice in how I snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

P.S it doesn't have to be a buffed flak ht to make T1 viable. Will take almost anything at this stage to give some variation to the meta.

Show Spoiler

there are some good points and some assumptions and opinions that either i do not agree with or do not have an opinion on yet. it will be nice for this issue to have a thread of its own .

If you haven't rely on your Volks so much in the past you'd learn how to play proper combined arms with OKW, no you have to catch up the hard way.

Problem with this is that OKW has the most pathetic support weapons for combined arms. Raketens get instant decrewed by anything really. They fall into enemy hands very easily and are then retreated. The ISG cannot retreat like a mortar so it is also very easily decrewed. The Mg34 is pretty poor. No comparison to the other mgs in the game. That is your support weapons.

Then the mainline infantry are fragile. The pioneers are fragile and expensive. The elite infantry are also very fragile until you vet them.

When you put everything together, and add in the multitude of superior allied artillery strikes, it's just a very weak combined army that never really holds - which is why people whine about playing combined arms with the OKW.

Problem with this is that OKW has the most pathetic support weapons for combined arms. Raketens get instant decrewed by anything really. They fall into enemy hands very easily and are then retreated. The ISG cannot retreat like a mortar so it is also very easily decrewed. The Mg34 is pretty poor. No comparison to the other mgs in the game. That is your support weapons.

Then the mainline infantry are fragile. The pioneers are fragile and expensive. The elite infantry are also very fragile until you vet them.

When you put everything together, and add in the multitude of superior allied artillery strikes, it's just a very weak combined army that never really holds - which is why people whine about playing combined arms with the OKW.

You need improve your micro.
Raketen is best AT in game. Invisible with fast ready up and with retreat option. Best hard counter versus alli TD. Stock MG34, without doctrine is OKW dream.

dont put everything together, space your support weapons and retreat them, if neccesary

You are correct cons have always suffered from this problem, but as with the latest state of the game the SU is in the best shape it has ever been in, to deal with it. Commanders to increase their flexibility, late game utility over Volks (reinforce other squads), hell even the option not to use them at all.

The problem with OKW isn't just because Volks are under performing late game, its due to the lack of options in the current meta. OKW has always been limited in choice of meta you can go with, it used to be hold out for Obers and panther tanks, and with the current state, a light vehicle rush into tanks.

Infantry is the weak link in giving OKW more choice with the current meta. OKW's infantry is over extended, including Sturms, a more defined role for these units is needed to correct it. If Volks are a stepping stone to Obers, position Obers so Volks can be that stone. Making Sturms so useful almost makes Volks a liability. If it wasn't for that snare, why get them. Having Obers arrive so late makes them of limited usefulness almost to the point of redundancy.

Give OKW options, don't force me to use call in infantry and vehicle rush. If changing Volks gives me more options, do that, if bringing Obers into the meta does it, do that. Anything that gives OKW more choice in meta will go along way to making this faction interesting.

"Do not force me to use call in infantry and vehicle rush." Now you know how USSR players have been feeling since the start.

Problem with this is that OKW has the most pathetic support weapons for combined arms. Raketens get instant decrewed by anything really. They fall into enemy hands very easily and are then retreated. The ISG cannot retreat like a mortar so it is also very easily decrewed. The Mg34 is pretty poor. No comparison to the other mgs in the game. That is your support weapons.

Then the mainline infantry are fragile. The pioneers are fragile and expensive. The elite infantry are also very fragile until you vet them.

When you put everything together, and add in the multitude of superior allied artillery strikes, it's just a very weak combined army that never really holds - which is why people whine about playing combined arms with the OKW.

Sturmpios are FRAGILE?! SERIOUSLY? I have had an engagement where I caught them out at almost max range with IS, I was in cover, and they were crossing a road(negative cover) to get to me. Both were full HP, vet 0. They still won, 3/4 members remaining. If that is fragile, I am the Pope. Of course, multiple infantry units will always focus them down, because it is great MP bleed and limits building mines and wires. It is the same with Assault Engineers. They are not meant to charge head on. You have Volk for that. Volk are fragile only until they vet up a little. Try using the sandbags more. And you know, they cost less than any other inf except cons, so it would be pretty broken if they beat riflemen and IS, and it still happens from time to time. That flame grenade is powerful, especially against the IS, since they cannot use that precious piece of cover anymore, and its so fast and has such a short cooldown that it is almost impossible to dodge, so it mostly will turn a fight around, unless its something like Rangers, but I made that cost point above already. Just mostly a question of micro.