USF Blobs

Jump back to quoted post25 Jun 2016, 21:47 PMDangerous-Cloth

The problem is, what else is USF supposed to do? They can only rely on riflemen..

Jump back to quoted post25 Jun 2016, 10:41 AMSvanh

Negative zeal, as it has been implemented in the past and as Relic would implement it, isn't the best mechanic. Its implementation in CoH1 and mods is generally through a stacking debuff for each additional friendly unit within an arbitrary distance of a squad. The problem is that this punishes both blobbers and any player who decides to place a squad in cover (i.e., micro) that is slightly too close to another friendly squad (especially when the debuff is triggered by a single stray model), which is especially nasty if you have to fight through a chokepoint. This also hits any squad using a friendly vehicle for cover (rare as it might be).

Jump back to quoted post26 Jun 2016, 04:46 AMRealName

I don't know if this would be a good fix, but can't they just make it so vehicles/weapon teams don't give negative zeal? And so that negative zeal would only trigger once a third squad gets close (something something two's company, three's a blob)?

Like for example: a lone rifle squad. another rifle squad comes close, no debuffs given. a third rifle squad comse close, a debuff goes out to all squads - "+20% received accuracy, -20% accuracy". a fourth rifle squad comes, the debuff is increased "+35% received accuracy, -35% accuracy" for all squads. the debuff stays until there are no more than two squads close together.

Or is this just not a possibility for CoH2 engine?

Jump back to quoted post25 Jun 2016, 11:41 AMCartoonVillain

So basically everyone playing ost cannot micro?

Jump back to quoted post25 Jun 2016, 00:34 AMsinthe

That's not true. I've been testing this alot and volks are better at range without the upgrade. The dps on paper is better but there is a disconnect in the performance. I'm considering making a video to show that cons do better against volks with stgs at long range.

Jump back to quoted post26 Jun 2016, 12:18 PMRappy

I have just been testing this out myself. It would appear there is something in it. I did tests with two different firing lanes at the same distance (long range) and vs vanilla Riflemen. Supposing the non-StG volks don't lose a model much before the StG volks (due to RNG), these vanilla volks almost always kill the Rifles faster than with the StG upgrade.

In the times when the StG volks do kill them faster it is very very close and not anywhere near the double dps at long range for the 2 longest lasting models that the weapons stats show.

Weird.

Jump back to quoted post26 Jun 2016, 12:45 PMCartoonVillain

So where did this idea that it's supposed to improve their long range dps come from? The notes from the patch say:

"Added StG 44 Package. Grants the squad two StG 44s that improve short-mid range combat for 60 munitions."

Nothing about long range dps. You could argue it doesn't say that the long range dps will be reduced, but isn't that how STG44's work?

Jump back to quoted post26 Jun 2016, 13:34 PMOZtheWiZARD

If the stats say they perform better then they perform better. There is no arguing about that.

Jump back to quoted post26 Jun 2016, 12:18 PMRappy

I have just been testing this out myself. It would appear there is something in it. I did tests with two different firing lanes at the same distance (long range) and vs vanilla Riflemen. Supposing the non-StG volks don't lose a model much before the StG volks (due to RNG), these vanilla volks almost always kill the Rifles faster than with the StG upgrade.

In the times when the StG volks do kill them faster it is very very close and not anywhere near the double dps at long range for the 2 longest lasting models that the weapons stats show.

Weird.

Jump back to quoted post26 Jun 2016, 15:08 PMMr.Smith

It -might- be that Kar98 Volks have equal-ish DPS to MP44 at extreme-max range. I don't know about it yet.

However, keep in mind that all squad engagements are extremely RNG-dependent. It all depends on how your models acquire targets at the initial part of the engagement
- If your models focus fire on a particular enemy model, and the enemy models spread their DPS over yours, you're golden.
- If it's the other way, you're gardened, and this is going to snowball

If you want to take a more statistical rule, keep in mind the following thing:
- Try to spawn 1-member squads, to avoid target-acquisition RNG
- If you use cheatmod, use the 'Superman' buff to make your damage-dealers invulnerable
- 10 samples is 0 samples

Just like in real life, you need at least 30 samples for each case to even consider claiming that you have a case :3

In fact, the best way to settle this:
- Spawn 1 invulnerable Volks model
- Spawn 30 riflemen squads at the same range
- Go out for a coffee
- Post results when you return

Jump back to quoted post26 Jun 2016, 17:15 PMsinthe

I've spoke about this already. It's because the StG damage per bullet gets spread across the models more evenly than the higher damage per bullet kar98.

Your methodology doesn't make sense, but I'll humour you.

Jump back to quoted post26 Jun 2016, 17:15 PMsinthe

Your methodology doesn't make sense, but I'll humour you.

Jump back to quoted post26 Jun 2016, 17:43 PMMr.Smith

Could you provide some evidence of this "spreading" effect happening? I am pretty sure that once an infantry model has acquired a target, it will not switch to a different target until the damn target is dead (or unreachable).

My methodology is all about eliminating noise from your measurements.

If you want to compare the DPS of two weapons, you don't just spawn two squadfuls of them (with mixed weapons even). Just spawn one weapon of each kind and let them do their job. The idea behind spawning 30 Riflemen models is that this will help even out the effects of RNG.

If you disagree with this methodology, what methodology would you use to compare two weapons?

Jump back to quoted post26 Jun 2016, 18:05 PMRappy

Yes I found the same thing in my tests. The spreading out of damage from the StG44. The StG squads did more health damage it seemed, but the Kar volks killed more models. Perhaps Kar98 has more chances of sniping than an StG? Or perhaps like you suggest it moves targets too much?

Either way it's definitely not as clear cut as saying its an upgrade at all ranges.

Jump back to quoted post26 Jun 2016, 17:55 PMsinthe

The scenario is matching my predictions. 12 kills vs 8 kills so far, but the StG has done more damage and therefore has more vet.