OKW (balance preview mode) - concerns and solutions

the difference with cons is the fact their rifle are crap to begin with. the volks kar 98 is actually decent and the stg44 retain the kar98's long range dps while substantially improving the close range dps.

if the stg44 was replaced with mp40, people are going to complain that they volks get picked off at long range. You want a decent long range weapon for your line infantry. SMG is more suited for special infantry.

Everyone needs to remember that Volks have alot of offensive Vet bonuses compared to Rifles when Comparing StGs with Bars, theyre gonna get dangerous with those StGs and they will get dangerous real fast

Cons kill volks at close-mid range, so not that crap. Only 2 'modified' mp44s are just a meh sidegrade, something nobody fancied about anyway, and you don't pay 60 munis for upgrades to merely "retain" your DPS and having an insignificant (ONLY two models are upgraded) close range boost.



Though I understand that 5 Mp40s would be an unpleasant thing to face for allied-only players.

Cons kill volks at close-mid range, so not that crap. Only 2 'modified' mp44s are just a meh sidegrade, something nobody fancied about anyway, and you don't pay 60 munis for upgrades to merely "retain" your DPS and having an insignificant (ONLY two models are upgraded) close range boost.



Though I understand that 5 Mp40s would be an unpleasant thing to face for allied-only players.

You have to take the affordability of Volks into the equation, along with the lack of solid means of cracking defenses as OKW.

Volks have the job of screening the specialized expensive units, for a cheap mobile force MP44s increase DPS and mobile DPS while scaling well with their vet. They need an upgrade that increases assault ability while still allowing them to deal mid to long range damage so that they retain their cheap, generalist status.

250MP is not exactly cheap. 2 modified Mp44s are not going to help cracking any lines.



It is just a gimmick sidegrade with no purpose other than supposedly making up for the removal of shrecks and wasting 60 munis.


This "they are cheap they should suck dick" argument does not cut it, seeing how tommies/RM for a 30 Mp difference wreck the elitest AI units.


Not to mention cons with their 45 muni upgrade can challenge and often force a fallback on PGrens, Sturms and AGrens.

the conscript and grenadier cost 240 mp. the GI and Tommies cost 280 mp.

the volks at 250 is a bit more expensive than the conscript but scale significantly better.

The volks combine the long range dps of the grenadier together with the squad size of rifleman.

the Okw doesn't have to worry about squad wipe like the ost while still retaining the superior armor typical of an axis faction.

Everyone needs to remember that Volks have alot of offensive Vet bonuses compared to Rifles when Comparing StGs with Bars, theyre gonna get dangerous with those StGs and they will get dangerous real fast

Not sure for the real fast without shreck and bonus XP it provides. They gonna get hurt a lot by light armored vehicle same if they keep the faust. But yes when they manage to get vet3-4 they are going to hurt a lot.

the volks at 250 is a bit more expensive than the conscript but scale significantly better.

Without shrecks they will have a hard time vetting up. Vet3 cons win against vet 5 volks.

The volks combine the long range dps of the grenadier

Grens are significantly better.

Everyone needs to remember that Volks have alot of offensive Vet bonuses compared to Rifles when Comparing StGs with Bars, theyre gonna get dangerous with those StGs and they will get dangerous real fast

I haven't really tried StG Volks in the preview patch. Thus, I am not qualified to speak how they perform.

However, accuracy-heavy veterancy is more useful for long-range infantry than close-range infantry (which require received accuracy to maintain their models while they close the gap).

The reason is that, if you have the upper hand (i.e., longer range, immediately when the fight starts), you want to be dealing as much damage as possible. If you don't have the upper hand, you will want to prolong the fight to move to a more optimal range.

- Grenadiers would be complete crap if we transformed their accuracy vet into received-accuracy vet.
- Bar-rifle blobs would melt to LMGs if we went the other way around.

250MP is not exactly cheap. 2 modified Mp44s are not going to help cracking any lines.

250mp is exactly cheap.
Cheapest mainline infantry costs 240mp, most expensive 280. 250 is cheap on that scale and this is the only scale available here.

These 2 STGs allow volks to effortelessly win engagements they would have no chance at previously, play preview.

It is just a gimmick sidegrade with no purpose other than supposedly making up for the removal of shrecks and wasting 60 munis.

Its a serious AI upgrade on BAR level.
You're in deep denial.

This "they are cheap they should suck dick" argument does not cut it, seeing how tommies/RM for a 30 Mp difference wreck the elitest AI units.

Sure, if you pack on them 250+mp, 30+fu and 120+muni worth of upgrades.
Stock rifles or tommies will not wreck anything except for basic troops.
You're in even deeper denial right now.

Not to mention cons with their 45 muni upgrade can challenge and often force a fallback on PGrens, Sturms and AGrens.

That upgrade is doctrinal and everyone will still roll over them until they reach vet3 and even then vetted pgrens/storms will shred them on approach.

250mp is exactly cheap.

K if you say so sir

These 2 STGs allow volks to effortelessly win engagements they would have no chance at previously, play preview.

Like winning against a vet2 bar RM at mid range? no, at least not effortlessly.

Its a serious AI upgrade on BAR level.

Which is totally unneeded, seeing as how a vet 2 sturmpioneer deals better damage without the need to waste 60 munis.

Sure, if you pack on them 250+mp, 30+fu and 120+muni worth of upgrades.

OKW will have their own share of side techs soon, check the full change log.

everyone will still roll over them until they reach vet3 and even then vetted pgrens/storms will shred them on approach.

Complete detachment from reality. Their pps got a massive buff last year, in case you missed it.

Grens are significantly better.

grens punch way above their weight but are notoriously fragile.

Volks are significantly more durable and forgiving due to their fifth men, while still retaining the grenadier's long range advantages.

K if you say so sir

And know your place, peasant!

Like winning against a vet2 bar RM at mid range? no, at least not effortlessly.

Yes, more expensive units with similar value upgrade investment tend to win against less expensive units.
You were trying to prove what here again?

Which is totally unneeded, seeing as how a vet 2 sturmpioneer deals better damage without the need to waste 60 munis.

Then build another spio instead of volk?
AMIGAWD! UCANBUILDSOMETHINGTHATISNTAVOLKANYMOREATSTART!

OKW will have their own share of side techs soon, check the full change log.

That is relevant how again?
They are not getting weapon unlocks, that is still free with tech.

Complete detachment from reality. Their pps got a massive buff last year, in case you missed it.

"massive"

If that was "massive buff" then I guess I could say I'm "slightly" less active player then HelpingHans.

You might want to actually go back and read the notes to see what was changed or even play a random ai game and use them yourself.
Let me enlighten you:

Instead of 0.1 DPS at far they now do 0.2.
Absolutely nothing has changed for the effective range, they are just as strong as they were at short and shoot overboiled noodles instead of bubbles at short-mid range now.

"grens=rifles" ahaahah never laughed so hard

What you and your colleagues below fail to understand is that I meant it in terms of faction design.
Both Grens and Rifles are strong core infantry units and whole army composition revolves around them while Volks and Cons were never intended to be as strong hence strong presence of elite units in their corresponding armies.

Yes, more expensive units with similar value upgrade investment tend to win against less expensive units.
You were trying to prove what here again?

>>>>>>>>>>>>

These 2 STGs allow volks to effortelessly win engagements they would have no chance at previously, play preview.

Then build another spio instead of volk?
AMIGAWD! UCANBUILDSOMETHINGTHATISNTAVOLKANYMOREATSTART!

Which confirms the fact that the 60 muni sidegrade is not worth it when you can just build another sturm.

That is relevant how again?

They are paying for side techs, on different stuff.

"massive"

You might want to actually go back and read the notes to see what was changed or even play a random ai game and use them yourself.

Increase their mid and far range profile so the weapon itself is not an immediate downgrade in overall dps.

Mid accuracy increased from 0.23 to 0.43

Far accuracy increased from 0.115 to 0.2

That is indeed an overbuff, specially when taking the untouched upgrade cost into account.

I thought up of there being 2 upgrades for volks. One defensive, one offensive. The defensive one could include scoped K98s or possibly an MG34 upgrade. The offensive one would be the 5x MP40s. It would not only give them more options for adjusting to the enemy's play-style, but would also require the user to at least use some brain power to decide what upgrade they should purchase, similar to what Relic thought the hammer and anvil upgrades would provide for the Brits.

I never knew what the problem with Shreck Blobs were in the first place. Volks ostensibly become a dedicated AT infantry in late game if upgraded with Shreck. And i mean that in a sense where they cant stand up to any other vanilla infantry enemy counterpart and win 1 on 1.

There were no high ranking replays of this problem properly demonstrated.

Now we have these elaborate patches to revamp a faction because of shrek blobs? Its a solution in search of a problem. OKW was pretty unique with mainline infantry having awesome AT i t1. Now they are just like Ostheer inf (just more mobile).

You show me a high ranking shreck blob replay and I will show a replay of a zook blob thats way more unstoppable. Lets revamp USF then; lets take away zooks and give them BARS. No wait, they already have those ... crowBARs then!

mp40 upgrade on volks wouldn't be a good idea. They are not a flanking or a close combat unit and I don't want to condemn them to uselessness after 10 minutes mark.

A better idea would be as Relic did in the first days of balance preview mode but no one figured it out and they quickly changed it. The 2 STGs were IRstgs not just ordinary STGs. And the things were a little different. If this change will be implemented, I think everybody will be ok with the shreck removing and new volks' face.

With the patch going live in 5 days, this thread is really useless.

250MP is not exactly cheap. 2 modified Mp44s are not going to help cracking any lines.



It is just a gimmick sidegrade with no purpose other than supposedly making up for the removal of shrecks and wasting 60 munis.


This "they are cheap they should suck dick" argument does not cut it, seeing how tommies/RM for a 30 Mp difference wreck the elitest AI units.


Not to mention cons with their 45 muni upgrade can challenge and often force a fallback on PGrens, Sturms and AGrens.

250 MP is average price, however Volks have almost no upkeep. This is why they're cheap.

Relative to the OKW economy 60 muni for a package that increases Volks dps and mobility is a good deal, they have little mandatory muni sinks unlike USF or Ost.

MP44s + vet allow them to deal solid damage most importantly on the move, like flanking an AT gun or HMG, or chasing a squad out of cover after chucking a grenade. The ability to deal damage on the move increases their mobility and allows you to use them in situations where they would normally be out of their element, like chasing down retreating squads, fighting elite troops at close range, chasing support weapons, spraying down flamer engineers, etc.

On "cheap they should suck argument"= every factions economy is different due to their design, Volks have almost no upkeep and OKW has little mandatory muni sinks, and Volks are a utility unit, Riflemen have high upkeep and are a utility unit-they should have a higher performance ceiling. To increase rifles performance is expensive, while Volks just need 60 muni and vet. In this patch Volks are essentially more economic Riflemen that start off worse but scale cheaper. This is due to the combination of fire nade, 10 muni nade, MP44, faust, and vet.