What makes Bofors unpleasant to fight?

So did US and later UKF.

Bofors reduces the game to static play. Surely even you can't defend that?

I'm not defending anything, but then again, I don't believe the strat shouldn't be valid just because some people don't like it.

Of course I do.

Your argument is subjective. You don't like static gameplay - it's stupid, it needs to be removed.
But it's only your opinion.

On the other hand I enjoy static, defensive gameplay.

So why your opinion should be over mine? We prefer different styles and the games offers them.

Flanking and movement is out of the question since WFA and Schwerer.

The Schwerer was a hindrance to flanking and movement I take your point there. But it was also given to a faction with no non-doctrinal MG.

In any case you could build only one and not brace it or surround it with counters to its counters. So yes, it shouldn't be in the game but no, it didn't put flanking and movement out of the question.

I'm surprised anyone likes sitting still and slowly pushing forward. It's so dull for me.


In real life defending never won a war. Only in CoH2 with Brits.

I'm not defending anything, but then again, I don't believe the strat shouldn't be valid just because some people don't like it.

Would you say the majority like it?

Looking back to Vanilla and US/OKW release, even with all the imbalances of both sides every game was mobile, you couldn't lock large areas of the map down (except Schwerer, which can be argued was also a design flaw but not as bad as bofors/mortar pit)


People seemed pretty happy with the dynamic playstyle. Nobody was saying "There's too much movement and strategy!" now a lot of people are complaining about the loss of the dynamic gameplay.

I'll leave you to make of that what you will.

Static play is boring. It's just angry birds with tanks.


What made the franchise so exciting was vanilla coh1 and vanilla coh2, which were all about clever flanking and movement. Not indirect fire vs indirect fire.

Do you enjoy static play?

I would take that a little further and say that it is not so much that all expansion armies are or were badly designed, but rather that the British have always been poorly designed and implemented and thus tended to make the game less fun and diminish the importance of the mobile sort of play that actually required skill.

Would you say the majority like it?

Looking back to Vanilla and US/OKW release, even with all the imbalances of both sides every game was mobile, you couldn't lock large areas of the map down (except Schwerer, which can be argued was also a design flaw but not as bad as bofors/mortar pit)


People seemed pretty happy with the dynamic playstyle. Nobody was saying "There's too much movement and strategy!" now a lot of people are complaining about the loss of the dynamic gameplay.

I'll leave you to make of that what you will.

It's not about whether the majority like-or-hate using static strategies.
It's also not about whether the majority like-or-hate playing against static strategies.

This is all about the people that are being forced into playing statically, just because their opponent happened to be using emplacement spam. Now, that has to stop.

That is to say, if you decide to spam emplacements, the game should still afford me a choice:
- Do I want to counter your emplacement spam with static play? or
- Would I like to counter your emplacement spam head on with <insert flanking maneuver here>

The game still kind of works for OKW, since their mainline infantry still has schrecks and flame nades (which can hurt emplacements). Except for the fact that they are still vulnerable to MG spam, which is present in teamgames.

However, Ostheer is completely fucked in that department. In 1v1, they have the choice of capping around sim city (which is annoying, but is still an option). In larger teammodes, you have to fight the sim city head on, or you lose.

As I mentioned in my other post, it's not the Bofors. The problem is that the system of counters for the mortar pit is completely wrong, and brace plays a big part in it.

Brace is not some miracle button.

If you are losing ground, brace won't stop you from destroying emplacement.
It will just make agony few secs longer.

Is there a counter play agasint retreat? No.
Retreat gives you bigger chances to survive, just like brace.

I guess you have exactly the same problem with retreat then?
After all, it unfairly makes opponent troops faster and hard to shoot at and therefore hard to kill.

You have no comprehension of why brace is there at all. I bet you never even played brits yourself to actually get a clue on what you're talking about.

Right, so I expect to see brace on the Pak 43 and OKW Flak next patch, along with both no longer being possible to decrew.



What's that? That would be horrible?

Huh. Who would have thought.



Look, I can understand why brace is there, but it's horribly implemented; and also unneeded. However, emplacements should be used ONLY when you know you can defend them well. If you get pushed out of the area of your emplacement, well, you lost that emplacement. It was like that in CoH1, it was like that in CoH2 (until UKF). Brace is just a 'padding' mechanic added to make emplacement use more forgiving - something that they REALLY don't need, considering their damage (especially against smaller OST squads).

How can I say that they don't need brace? Well, look at the Pak43 and OKW Flak - neither has ever had brace, and in fact, BOTH are decrewable. However, did anyone ever complain that they were incredibly OP? No, not really. Maybe one thread every few months back when the Pak43 could shoot through objects EVERY shot (but that was nerfed), but that's about it. The OKW Flak also never really gets talked about (although the 1-shot decrew should be looked at). Why is this? Because they are very high risk/reward units. If you place a Pak43 down in a good area, and defend it well, your AT 'power' goes up by an insane amount. However, if you get pushed back, even a little bit, that thing is getting decrewed if not destroyed pretty much immediately.

It works well. No idea why it's so impossible for other emplacements to work this way.

Right, so I expect to see brace on the Pak 43 and OKW Flak next patch, along with both no longer being possible to decrew.



What's that? That would be horrible?

Huh. Who would have thought.

If pak43 got swapped with 17-pdr nothing would change, still nobody would build any of these

I´m not reading through four sides of text. Here is why I hate the Bofors or emplcaments in general. You can´t look at the Bofors in a vacuum as it´s so cheap and usually accompanied by a mortar pit. Thus I´ll take a look at the all deciding part. Early in the game a mortar pit and a Bofors have been set up.

Let´s take a look at the Ostheer player who wants to counter these emplacements:

- He sees his mortar getting shot to bits by the mortar pit. He can´t sustain fire.
- Flamethrowers are killed by the Bofors in one salvo.
- Paks get shot to bits by the mortar-pit or Bofors barrage.
- The emplacements can´t/mustn´t be ignored on most maps. They restrict moving around the flanks also. Best examples being Semoiski, Trois Ponts, Road to Charkov.
- You have to try to force a brace with artillery, move in with flamethrower infantry and hope that there is no 2nd Bofors and or IS picking you off. This is near to impossible.
- There is no bleed on the British player for using emplacements while Axis infantry drops like flies. After some engagements the Axis player has bled out and lost the manpower/ most likely also the fuel-race.

Meanwhile the Brit player:

- Presses the brace button.
- Klicks where the Bofors barrage should fire.

^Please note the horrendous skill gap between the Ostheer and Brit player.

And in the larger sense, it's a slap in the face to the tradition of COH, which was originally about maneuvering, flanking, and cunning micro and tactics. All you can do is bomb it, or waste a lot of manpower assaulting it.

It lowers the skill cap of the game by its very existence.

It makes skilled players mad because their skill means nothing since any noob can throw up a Bofors and it will take only slightly less time for a top 10 player to get rid of it then another noob.

+1

nobody ever missed emplacements...


so why did they come back?

+1

i dislike emplacements because they are the anti-coh

they require no maneuvering (because they are buildings lol)

they incur no bleed to the owner when attrition and calculated engagements are what coh strives for, its an all or nothing unit, the enemy goes all in to destroy it, or the brit wins, the enemy doesn't completely destroy it and all their losses are for nothing

micro? nah my pit will auto counter any indirect and my bofors will counter everything up to a medium tank just by being there...

im a firm believer in being rewarded by how YOU play, not by the rolls of a built in dice, and thats ALL that emplacements are

Right, so I expect to see brace on the Pak 43 and OKW Flak next patch, along with both no longer being possible to decrew.



What's that? That would be horrible?

Huh. Who would have thought.

Ok.

Don't forget to increase pak's cost to 70fuel.

As for flak emplacement it should work like a bunker.

It's not the Bofors. It's the Mortar Pit, stupid

You could make the Bofors more balanced by making it a copy-paste of the OKW T4. That means:
- Increase HP
- Remove brace
- Remove barrage
- Decrease damage
- Increase suppression
- Increase price (MP & Fuel)
- Take away attack ground

Theoretically, the earlier arrival of the Bofors (vs T4 lockdown) will balance itself since (Bofors) Brits have the most incomplete army composition in the game, and OKW has the most complete army composition in the game.

However, even if you do that, people will still come back in the forums and (rightfully) complain. That's because it all starts with the Mortar Pit.

No matter how hard you try to change the Mortar Pit, it will always remain an all-or-nothing investment. What makes things more complicated is that it is the only indirect fire option Brits have under the sun. This means that:
- (single) Mortar Pits should work (since it's Brits only indirect fire, and it can't move)
- Spamming Mortar Pits will remain as rewarding as ever (if 1 is good, 4 is better)
- Result: Emplacement spam

My personal gripes with emplacement play:
- Brace completely nullifies infantry play
- Thus, the only counter to mortar pits are tanks (too late) and indirect fire (lame, since it's mortar spam both ways)
- It's all-or-nothing. Thus, the defender will feel the need to constantly spam emplacements so that he never loses the indirect fire race.

Campy playstyle is all about who is the king of artillery. That's because it's the other guy that has to attack your artillery (and gets shredded). Currently, with Mortar-Pit Spam and doctrinal/DLC stuff (micro-free repairs, counter batter, land mattress), it's the Brits. (there is no point arguing who comes second. The game should simply not accommodate such huuuge gaps in artillery performance to avoid just that).

NOTE: emplacements are mostly a teamgame issue.

EXACTLY. The bofor enables mortar pit spam and blocks any attack from infantry/support weapons/light vehicles till you can afford a tank. This means that the game slows down till you have enough resources to tech and pull out a tank or you are able to slowly and somehow kill the bofor (OH in this case get's screwed as their only option is to tech, smoke shenanigans or doc choices).

Problem1: Bofor barrage is 80 range, this is the same range as normal indirect fire choices (mortar).
Solution1: reduce barrage range. 70 means mortar would be mostly free to attack, 55 would mean AT guns are free to attack.

Problem2: with emplacements, there's practically no difference in performance between a 5000 rank guy and a top100.
Solution2.1: improve barrage across the board (this is for all factions). Fix the mortar pit issues (different performance between both mortars), reduce autoattack range to 80. Bring back different shells barrage options. Leave a 100/115 barrage option with normal shells and 130/160 lightshell (40/60 dmg) barrage*

*Before you scream about the range, reminder that 160 is the Pack howie 3 shell barrage, 130 is both 120mm and ISG barrage range (with vet).

Problem 3: bofor performance. As i said before, i don't think Bofors is the issue. If either idle or offensive performance are an issue seen by the community, i think that:
A) If input should be required, we could give it a 120-140° facing option (like MG in houses). This would deter attacks coming from one direction and we could leave offensive performance as it's now.
B) Reduce offensive power and give it suppression (make it work simil to OKW Flak HQ).

Ok.

Don't forget to increase pak's cost to 70fuel.

As for flak emplacement it should work like a bunker.

Sure, as long as we drop MP to 400, we can increase fuel. But remember, it's doc vs. non-doc, so the Pak needs to be a bit better.

As for the Flak, it can work exactly like the bofors: 360 degree rotation, no decrew, something like 1000hp, brace, a nice barrage ability.... Probably need to also dramatically increase the damage, so it wipes 1 model per shot, give it some armor pen as well (it's only fair)...

Yea, this sounds great.




Or alternatively, we could bring the Bofors/17lb in line with the Flak/Pak43 and have the game actually be fun to play.

for me Okw flak bulding is unpleasant to fight pls remove this from game and pls relic make bofors like OKW flak emplacement ok ? Wermaht is in trouble in games 4vs4 ? UPS I can even imagine how I was patient to play as USF in games 4vs4 before brits release. Before brit realese this game was a cancer for USF vs wermaht in teamgames mods yeah right but smoke and flank right?. Now this lamentation about wermaht is UP its just music for my ears no offence guys

Every other day a new thread is being opened about the British emplacements

No one likes to be in a game that takes 1 hour of watching artillery units go back and fourth

It's bullshit how the British decides the game play style. static or mobile.

If the brit decides to sim city. Then the whole game adjust to that plays tyke

They are the only faction with actual "press 1 button to counter"

People who defend sim city are the ones who use it the most. The ones who like the playstyle of "sit back and build defensive structures till you have an army big enough to attack" It's the same people who like maps that only have 1 crossing in the middle like a bridge or something and they like to just defend and arty.

It's stupid, it's not what I bought this game for. Keep it up. Won't be many more players except for the brits

No abilities like standfast, or brace should ever be implimented. It's 100% noob friendly and brainless to use..

for me Okw flak bulding is unpleasant to fight pls remove this from game and pls relic make bofors like OKW flak emplacement ok ? Wermaht is in trouble in games 4vs4 ? UPS I can even imagine how I was patient to play as USF in games 4vs4 before brits release. Before brit realese this game was a cancer for USF vs wermaht in teamgames mods yeah right but smoke and flank right?. Now this lamentation about wermaht is UP its just music for my ears no offence guys

Not really the same thing.

OKW Flak HT come late in the game. You need at least 1 HQ down (100/15 for truck + 200/30), then you need to get the actual flak truck (another 100/15) and set it up (200/100). So, if you rushed and did nothing else, you'd need to spend 600/160 to get a flak truck down. The bofors costs 670/60 by comparison, but that also gets you a builder squad. Ignoring that unit, it's really 460/60.

Then on top of that the Flak truck doesn't have brace, has less range, doesn't have barrage, and when it's lost it costs you another 300/115 to rebuild (vs 280/30) while ALSO meaning you have no T4.

Then on top of THAT (because why not), it also can't gain vet, takes up more room (less places to put it), takes longer to build, is vulnerable while it's moving and then can't be cancelled while building (you lose your 100/15 unit).

Oh, and on top of THAT, you're limited to one at a time.

Oh! Also, you can't manually control where/what it shoots AND you can't attack ground.




Really, it's not even in the same ball-park. Yes, having a flak cannon on a place-anywhere HQ building is dumb, but don't try to say it's better than a bofors - it's just not.

And you say that Ost vs. USF was terrible... but I'm not seeing it. Both sides were pretty fun to play (although the blob meta was a bit worse back then). Also, 4v4 was a joke back then and still is now. If you're playing it for anything other than a silly blob-fest troll game.... (I usually go FS and build 2-3 LEFHs, because I can).

Sure, as long as we drop MP to 400, we can increase fuel. But remember, it's doc vs. non-doc, so the Pak needs to be a bit better.

As for the Flak, it can work exactly like the bofors: 360 degree rotation, no decrew, something like 1000hp, brace, a nice barrage ability.... Probably need to also dramatically increase the damage, so it wipes 1 model per shot, give it some armor pen as well (it's only fair)...

Yea, this sounds great.




Or alternatively, we could bring the Bofors/17lb in line with the Flak/Pak43 and have the game actually be fun to play.

Bofors =/= Flak.

Bofors is a tier unit.
Flak is "something". If you want make it like Bofors, then you need to put into Med/Mech in exchange for 251/17 or Puma.

What's more, it seems like you consider 17P as a superior to Pak43. Well, it's not.

400MP 70F vs 500MP.

17 Pounder can:
Brace.
Use flares.
It's unable to decrew.

But at the same time:
can be destroyed by incendiary (pak can be only decrewed)
can be countered by AT guns (pak43 can't)
cannot shoot through obstacles (pak43 can)
can be destroyed by small arms (pak43 cant)

So think about them one more time, consider prices and tell me one more time which one is better.

Why is the pak40 being brought up again? Cuz you see those often rignt? Wrong