Ost Grenadier Squad Size Upgrade

I dont think you understand how delicate the balance between cons and grens is... They must close the distance in order to beat grens. They only win because they can out last them. You want to give them an extra man (meaning they have an even narrower margine to walk for victory) AND give that unit a close range weapon (destroying the balance they have entirely)

For the sake of conscripts then, the health of the NCO can even be lowered to 60 hp, all that matters is that his presence prevents bad RNG.

I meant only USF, when said that infantry is their armycore. UKF is ridiculous faction, needs total redesign.

This thread is about grens, but you suggest to make "1-side" buff to mainline infantry, which is already pretty balanced with it's opposite units (except UKF again). So I said - if you want to get NCO or any other way of increasing squad of grens and giving them more suriviability - I 100% agree, but only if their opponent mainline squad (Cons) will also get buff in their weak side.

Either we fixing weaknesses of all mainlines or we don't touch any, ok?

The problem with this idea is that grenadiers don't only face off against conscripts, they face off against USF and UKF, therefore, they have two other opposite mainline units. The upgrade is not a straight buff either, so it is not like it is a pure damage buff that will radically murder conscripts. This upgrade will cost more manpower on mainline infantry that are already really expensive to reinforce.

The problem with this idea is that grenadiers don't only face off against conscripts, they face off against USF and UKF, therefore, they have two other opposite mainline units. The upgrade is not a straight buff either, so it is not like it is a pure damage buff that will radically murder conscripts. This upgrade will cost more manpower on mainline infantry that are already really expensive to reinforce.

I don't talk about "NCO buff will make grens more deadly". I said - grenadeers are deadly enough right now, there is no problem with that. But, their power compensated with their fragileness, they actually work like glasscannon units, like M36.

You suggest to remove from them their weak side by upgrade because "they underperform in late and die fast". And I agree with that totally! But there is another mainline squad, which is also underperform in late, but not because die fast - because it can't deal enough damage.

So, I say you again - I agree with idea of increasing grensquads, but - if we making all mainline infantry squads "without weakpoints", then Conscripts deserve to have firepower upgrades, that's all. If we will only buff grens, make them good, then Cons will be only mainline infantry in game, which is underperforming hard, and grens will perform pretty much like Tommyboys.

I don't have anything against your idea, I only ask you to be fair and objective in that. Cons and Grens right now are more or less balanced as mainline infantry. One have power, other - HP. Buff one - buff another for to save it.

Extra man idea

I'm going to write what I've written to the last few "Extra Gren Model" threads: adding a model to Grens is a band-aid solution.

Late-game squad-wipes are an issue for all infantry squads. Adding an extra man to Grens in late-game won't help Obersoldaten, pre-upgrade Grens, Pioneers, Combat Engineers etc.

Address the problem, not the symptoms. Adjust explosive weapons so they can't one-shot infantry or change received accuracy modifiers to received damage modifiers.

My guess is it's because there's no system in place to handle a change in squad cost at production level.

They would cost more if the upgrade didn't discount them. Relic probably did this because 350mp IS and 262mp Sappers are a bit expensive for their performance, even with five models.

I meant only USF, when said that infantry is their armycore. UKF is ridiculous faction, needs total redesign.

I'd look at the stats before declaring UKF "ridiculous". Infantry Sections have very clear and easy to exploit weaknesses (out-of-cover penalty, poor close-range accuracy, terrible moving accuracy, expensive to buy and reinforce).

I would rather increase their received accuracy and loosen up the formation before trying to shoehorn in a fifth man.

Agreed. A slight buff to received accuracy would help their performance and squad spacing would help prevent the 1 shot wipes from explosive weapons in the late game.

I think this is more sensible than adding a fifth man, ost shouldnt have the numerical advantage and need to rely more on support weapons.

I also believe that relic needs to bite the bullet and admit thay FORCING units into a position they can get 1 shot (bunching up behind a stick or in 1 shell hole the size of a bucket) isnt a wise choice. Amd IF grens were to get a 5th man I would see it tied to the g43 tech as the interrogator, armed with a pistol since its supposed to covert the squad into a mobile almost assault squad and it locks out the fantastic firepower of the lmg42

I think this is more sensible than adding a fifth man, ost shouldnt have the numerical advantage and need to rely more on support weapons.

Er... I thought that's about USSR Maxims FTW!

Let's bury the "but my poor cons!" argument here, and let it rest in peace. Grens are a source of heavy MP bleed and need a hotfix.

The PeePeesh upgrades renders ASSgrens and Pgrens dead so it should be removed from the game. You get the idea.

If the new patch is implemented as is, I would have to guess that the next one would see Ostheer infantry being buffed.

The easiest solution would be to have the start as 5 men squad reduce their received accuracy abit and their DPS to remain in the same levels...

Your idea of adding an NCO unit model that has MP40, grants 5% experience, sounds more than just merely adding a fifth guy. This is an overall buff, period.

Remove trash vet 1 ability from grens, move vet 3 and 2 lower, and make vet 3 a squad member increase and reduce something like 20%-30% accuracy from grens so that their dps isnt changed much. There, you get rewarded with some survivability for succesfully not getting them killed into the late game.

Or just remove vet 1 medkit ability entirely and replace it with something actually useable. Like, has anyone actually ever used this shit? Maybe if it was 5-10 muni and self healable AND instant it might get used. Or just make it free and give it a long cooldown. It's soo terrible.

Let's bury the "but my poor cons!" argument here, and let it rest in peace. Grens are a source of heavy MP bleed and need a hotfix.

The PeePeesh upgrades renders ASSgrens and Pgrens dead so it should be removed from the game. You get the idea.

Lol, everyone here like to speak about "assymetrical balance", don't want to have copyfactions...

Making "5 men upgrade" is copy of UKF, isn't that problem? I guess it is, cos even UKF doesn't deserve to have such upgrade and you want to make it in Ostheer, which infantry is very nice already.

Yes, they can be wiped, so what? Let's make mechanic, which will save your squads with 100% from random wipe just because "it's stupid to lose your squad to 1-shot shell"? Nope, it's fine actually. That's how game works. Lost squad? Bad luck - buy new. I see no reasons to cry here.

Argument of "but my poor cons!" is available, because again - it is part of "assymetrical balance". Cons - survivable, but bad in dealing damage. Grens - deal damage nice, but fragile and dying fast. Personally I like second more, cos I don't need units, which only can get damage, I need units which damage deal! If you want to fix a point of grens, which balancing them with all other infantry squads - then fix it for all such squads, Cons really need late game firepower buff!

If you want to have as Ostheers mainline survivable infantry - change Grens and Osttrupens positions then. Osttrupens are very survivable with 6 men squads - just what you need! But you know what? We already have faction, which has Osttrupens as mainline - USSR.

About PPSHs - Assgrens are really weak and should have lategame scale STG upgrade, I think. And PZgrens are fine against PPSHs, if you keep your grens under control.

How about adding a medic along the Grens squad? Since some are arguing about the extra close-range fighting capability (Even though I like the NCO idea), how about a medic like the Ranger squad in the campaign. But this medic would only heal the squad he's in and out of combat and need to be purchased (10 to 15 muni perhap?)

I don't talk about "NCO buff will make grens more deadly". I said - grenadeers are deadly enough right now, there is no problem with that. But, their power compensated with their fragileness, they actually work like glasscannon units, like M36.

You suggest to remove from them their weak side by upgrade because "they underperform in late and die fast". And I agree with that totally! But there is another mainline squad, which is also underperform in late, but not because die fast - because it can't deal enough damage.

So, I say you again - I agree with idea of increasing grensquads, but - if we making all mainline infantry squads "without weakpoints", then Conscripts deserve to have firepower upgrades, that's all. If we will only buff grens, make them good, then Cons will be only mainline infantry in game, which is underperforming hard, and grens will perform pretty much like Tommyboys.

I don't have anything against your idea, I only ask you to be fair and objective in that. Cons and Grens right now are more or less balanced as mainline infantry. One have power, other - HP. Buff one - buff another for to save it.

I more than agree with you about conscripts, I simply cannot think of a potential change to them that wouldn't unbalance the game. I'm sure that something can/should be done, just I don't know what.

Lol, everyone here like to speak about "assymetrical balance", don't want to have copyfactions...

Making "5 men upgrade" is copy of UKF, isn't that problem? I guess it is, cos even UKF doesn't deserve to have such upgrade and you want to make it in Ostheer, which infantry is very nice already.

Yes, they can be wiped, so what? Let's make mechanic, which will save your squads with 100% from random wipe just because "it's stupid to lose your squad to 1-shot shell"? Nope, it's fine actually. That's how game works. Lost squad? Bad luck - buy new. I see no reasons to cry here.

Argument of "but my poor cons!" is available, because again - it is part of "assymetrical balance". Cons - survivable, but bad in dealing damage. Grens - deal damage nice, but fragile and dying fast. Personally I like second more, cos I don't need units, which only can get damage, I need units which damage deal! If you want to fix a point of grens, which balancing them with all other infantry squads - then fix it for all such squads, Cons really need late game firepower buff!

If you want to have as Ostheers mainline survivable infantry - change Grens and Osttrupens positions then. Osttrupens are very survivable with 6 men squads - just what you need! But you know what? We already have faction, which has Osttrupens as mainline - USSR.

About PPSHs - Assgrens are really weak and should have lategame scale STG upgrade, I think. And PZgrens are fine against PPSHs, if you keep your grens under control.

One of the major tenants of the game is infantry preservation. "You lose a vet 3 squad, so replace it" is not necessarily fine if you lost it due to a situation you cannot avoid. If you lose your vet 3 squad to mines, well that is your fault, you should have had a sweeper, you lose them at full health to a mortar randomly opening up, there is no way to predict where the mortar shells will fall. Just because of the way explosives work in this game, I doubt there is a way to change them to not squad wipe if units are clumped up, but at least the fifth man could prevent such a situation from happening.

Your idea of adding an NCO unit model that has MP40, grants 5% experience, sounds more than just merely adding a fifth guy. This is an overall buff, period.

MP 40 is overall useless in most combat situations. 5% exp was an idea to distinguish the upgrade from the British, can be removed. More men is more MP bleed on already expensive infantry. Upgrade costs something of course.

I don't talk about "NCO buff will make grens more deadly". I said - grenadeers are deadly enough right now, there is no problem with that. But, their power compensated with their fragileness, they actually work like glasscannon units, like M36.

You suggest to remove from them their weak side by upgrade because "they underperform in late and die fast". And I agree with that totally! But there is another mainline squad, which is also underperform in late, but not because die fast - because it can't deal enough damage.

So, I say you again - I agree with idea of increasing grensquads, but - if we making all mainline infantry squads "without weakpoints", then Conscripts deserve to have firepower upgrades, that's all. If we will only buff grens, make them good, then Cons will be only mainline infantry in game, which is underperforming hard, and grens will perform pretty much like Tommyboys.

I don't have anything against your idea, I only ask you to be fair and objective in that. Cons and Grens right now are more or less balanced as mainline infantry. One have power, other - HP. Buff one - buff another for to save it.

I do like to remind you that with the penals buff they are more then likely going to be the new mainline infantry for the SU. Aslo until now the SU has always relied on callins or pphs upgrades.

So i dont think this argument is not really a good counter against gren 1 + man upgrade

I'm going to write what I've written to the last few "Extra Gren Model" threads: adding a model to Grens is a band-aid solution.

Late-game squad-wipes are an issue for all infantry squads. Adding an extra man to Grens in late-game won't help Obersoldaten, pre-upgrade Grens, Pioneers, Combat Engineers etc.

Address the problem, not the symptoms. Adjust explosive weapons so they can't one-shot infantry or change received accuracy modifiers to received damage modifiers.


They would cost more if the upgrade didn't discount them. Relic probably did this because 350mp IS and 262mp Sappers are a bit expensive for their performance, even with five models.


I'd look at the stats before declaring UKF "ridiculous". Infantry Sections have very clear and easy to exploit weaknesses (out-of-cover penalty, poor close-range accuracy, terrible moving accuracy, expensive to buy and reinforce).

In my experience, upgrading with bolster infantry squads is critical late game, because in the games I don't, I simply lose too many squads to wipes. I doubt there would be anyway to change explosives to still be useful and yet won't one shot a squad.

no longer unfair RNG wipes by UKF mortar pits? muhhhh
inb4 wiping all 5 models LUL!

I do like to remind you that with the penals buff they are more then likely going to be the new mainline infantry for the SU.

i still dont think that much people will take T1 over T2, at least in the early game
well i do, strafniki + guards are even now very good