Anvil Churchill could use a SLIGHT buff

It should be a heavy tank, regardless of cost. Giving it's light armament and very slow speed it has to compensate with armour.

If it has to cost 250FU for 340+ armour then so be it, it will merely be a pale comparison to the Comet otherwise.

I like this idea too. 1600 hp, 360 armor, samed damage as Cromwell's gun. 600-700 manpower, 200-300 fuel (maybe limited call-in too?).

Churchill is gonna be the juggernaut that you spearhead into pak walls and Panther packs. It's not going to do much damage, but just enough that it can't be ignored completely.

Churchill is an "infantry support tank" and its there to support infantry and be supported by infantry. Making these changes to smoke would actually allow it to support infantry by negating the cover penalty and reducing the affect of suppression.

Such a change would:
1)improve immersion making the tank behave as its real life design intent giving a unique ability.
2)it would improve in game design intent. The name of the ability is "Infantry support smoke" after all. If you check game files you will see that it seems that is set up to provide cover bonuses.

How big is the smoke screen? at the most it's going to fit maybe one or two infantry before it start becoming cluttered. Trying to stick so many infantry close to the churchill is just going to turn the blob into an artillery target.

In additional, survivability is a big part of being an infantry support tank as well. The churchill will need to have insanely high armor value to be an effective meatshield against stuff like the jagdtiger. Even the Jagdtiger's own armor would have trouble against the elefant.

Shot blocker smoke will allow the churchill to have an addition trick against the strongest axis stuff.

I had a more thorough reply written, but the forums ate it on me.

While I agree it shouldn't be a vet pinata, I'd have to strongly disagree with the notion that its price/performance is fine.

It's simply too expensive for what it will ever be capable of. You can see how it died after the patch which increased the cost to current levels. I'd go as far as saying that building a Churchill is better for the opponent than it is for the player who built it.

It has poor speed and a relatively weak gun (it's literally a Cromwell's gun with a longer reload). In the end game that means you either need numbers or supporting tanks to achieve much of note. The problem is that its cost is so high that the opponent can easily afford units to nullify the Churchill. It's more expensive than the Ostheer Panther for example. As a british player, you're almost always better off going for the Comet or simply more Cromwells. The HP of the Churchill simply does not justify its current cost.

My personal opinion is that the Churchill is still quite viable. I posit that the biggest reason people shy away from the Churchill is the psychological low-armour = bad-unit mental connection. With my OP I aim to correct this dissonance.

However, as you can guess, the Churchill is a situational unit. Now, what I propose is that before we go ahead and overbuff the Churchill, let's go with a simple side-buff. This is not a direct buff to the Churchill, but it is a significant buff to the Anvil meta-strategy (when multiple units and abilities meld together).

Hammer vs Anvil is not Comet vs Churchill

On a Comet vs Churchill basis, the Comet is currently better because it's 1) more self-sufficient 2) offers more utility to your army composition (80-range White Phosphorus is godly in an army with no offensive artillery).

What this means is that Comet spam is way more viable than Churchill spam. However, UKF has other units in place to cover for the Churchill's shortcomings. The Comet, in part, overlaps with these units.

On a Hammer vs Anvil basis, things would have been quite equal; if it were not for bugs.

The main reason Anvil sucks this patch is because every single ability apart from Airburst shells (and I mean every single one) is currently bugged and does not work, one way or another.
- Heavy Engineers lose their armour bonus when they die. Also, their vet is bugged. When this is fixed they will become 3x more durable to small arms. For a 13MP reinforcement cost.
- Advanced warning doesn't give extra sight anymore. Free recon is important in a mobility-challenged sub-doctrine.

+1

Neat idea.

...
Shot blocker smoke will allow the churchill to have an addition trick against the strongest axis stuff.

Think we have agree to disagree.
"Infantry support smoke" in my opinion should help the infantry and in it current form it does help them at all.

My personal opinion is that the Churchill is still quite viable. I posit that the biggest reason people shy away from the Churchill is the psychological low-armour = bad-unit mental connection. With my OP I aim to correct this dissonance.

However, as you can guess, the Churchill is a situational unit. Now, what I propose is that before we go ahead and overbuff the Churchill, let's go with a simple side-buff. This is not a direct buff to the Churchill, but it is a significant buff to the Anvil meta-strategy (when multiple units and abilities meld together).

Hammer vs Anvil is not Comet vs Churchill

On a Comet vs Churchill basis, the Comet is currently better because it's 1) more self-sufficient 2) offers more utility to your army composition (80-range White Phosphorus is godly in an army with no offensive artillery).

What this means is that Comet spam is way more viable than Churchill spam. However, UKF has other units in place to cover for the Churchill's shortcomings. The Comet, in part, overlaps with these units.

On a Hammer vs Anvil basis, things would have been quite equal; if it were not for bugs.

The main reason Anvil sucks this patch is because every single ability apart from Airburst shells (and I mean every single one) is currently bugged and does not work, one way or another.
- Heavy Engineers lose their armour bonus when they die. Also, their vet is bugged. When this is fixed they will become 3x more durable to small arms. For a 13MP reinforcement cost.
- Advanced warning doesn't give extra sight anymore. Free recon is important in a mobility-challenged sub-doctrine.

+1, on that note, Lelic plz fix Gammon bomb too, currently it is useless.

"Hammer vs Anvil is not Comet vs Churchill"

Hmmm, well yes it is. Every other ability is a complete sideshow compared to the armour. Are you seriously telling me that you would pay 200MP and 50FU for Gammon bombs or increased sight range from strat points? Utter rubbish man, you choose one and lock the other out, it is a straight choice and a comparison which at the moment is stark in favour of the Comet due to at least 5 nerfs to the Churchill.

The faction design also calls for a heavy tank to give the Brits a powerful late game. If I recall correctly the Brit late game should be stronger than OKWs, which certainly isn't the case! What can possibly draw a Tiger's fire from one shot wiping your infantry squads? Or face up to the truly monstrous TDs that the Axis can use?

"Hammer vs Anvil is not Comet vs Churchill"

Hmmm, well yes it is. Every other ability is a complete sideshow compared to the armour. Are you seriously telling me that you would pay 200MP and 50FU for Gammon bombs or increased sight range from strat points? Utter rubbish man, you choose one and lock the other out, it is a straight choice and a comparison which at the moment is stark in favour of the Comet due to at least 5 nerfs to the Churchill.

Perhaps I am being misinterpreted. What I am saying is that the Comet is strictly better than the Churchill at this point. However, Anvil abilities more than make up for this. Thus, the choice of specialization (Hammer or Anvil) depends on your desired playstyle/what situation you are up against.

Hammer gets:
- Emergency warspeed (which is damn awesome, but is not really useful once you've been snared)
- Vehicle marking (this is, at best, situational)
- Gammon bomb (for that price and fuse time, lol)

Anvil gets:
- Heavy Sappers (super-glue repairs + a unit with the cost-efficiency of Osttruppen and the combat durability of Obersoldaten -- for a hefty munitions tradeoff)
- Capture Point sight (this is ultra-useful; I just can't stress enough)
- Airburst shells (situational at best, but better than nothing)

Now regarding Capture point sight, I would gladly pay 200MP and 50FU just to the sight range. This goes for any faction and any doctrine in the game (except for OKW maybe, which gets maphax IR).

This allows you to know exactly what type of unit is capturing exactly which part of the map at any point. And the best part? It's not counterable, and you don't have to do anything to set up the extra sight range.

Think you might be on your own there dude, even if it worked, which it doesn't.

You seem to be sidestepping the issue, the Comet isn't slightly better than the Churchill, it blows it out of the water, for the same cost.

Maybe it's a cultural thing but I think most reasonable people would think that Anvil was a poor choice in comparison to Hammer due to the crapness of the Churchill.

Ergo Churchill needs a buff ( or a de-nerf) as it invalidates an entire tech tree. You've even described it yourself as being an asset to the opposition.

I would go even further and say that aside from the Hammer Vs Anvil debate, I would pick a Cromwell over a Churchill any day.

If the Churchill maintains its current speed and acceleration, it needs more armor.
If it maintains its current armor, it needs more speed and acceleration.

Just to make absolutely sure I'm not being misinterpreted.

1) Currently (with bugged Anvil & Vet-Piñata Churchill), there is absolutely no reason to go for Anvil (ok, maybe repair speed for teamgames). This is a no-brainer.
2) With fixed Anvil &-Vet Piñata Churchill there will be good incentives to go for Anvil (the abilities I listed). However, Anvil Churchill will still be doing more harm than good if fielded.
3) With fixed Anvil & Reduced-Vet Churchill (the proposed change), Anvil will be at least as viable as #2. It will also be possible to field a Churchill without shooting yourself in the foot (in my opinion).

I expect that we will soon get to state #2 (fixed bugs, someday). However, I foresee an issue that is already present (Vet Piñata) which will remain present. Thus, I am campaigning for option #3 here.

Going Anvil does not mean that you HAVE to field a Churchill. However, with the proposed change, it will become VIABLE to field a Churchill in certain situations (doesn't have to be ALL situations -- doesn't have to be the first tank you rush, either).

Just to make absolutely sure I'm not being misinterpreted.

1) Currently (with bugged Anvil & Vet-Piñata Churchill), there is absolutely no reason to go for Anvil (ok, maybe repair speed for teamgames). This is a no-brainer.
2) With fixed Anvil &-Vet Piñata Churchill there will be good incentives to go for Anvil (the abilities I listed). However, Anvil Churchill will still be doing more harm than good if fielded.
3) With fixed Anvil & Reduced-Vet Churchill (the proposed change), Anvil will be at least as viable as #2. It will also be possible to field a Churchill without shooting yourself in the foot (in my opinion).

I expect that we will soon get to state #2 (fixed bugs, someday). However, I foresee an issue that is already present (Vet Piñata) which will remain present. Thus, I am campaigning for option #3 here.

Going Anvil does not mean that you HAVE to field a Churchill. However, with the proposed change, it will become VIABLE to field a Churchill in certain situations (doesn't have to be ALL situations -- doesn't have to be the first tank you rush, either).

1. I disagree with your proposed change because it would introduce special rules that aren't easily maintained or intuitive to understand. I think Relic simply made an error in calculating its cost/efficiency and it needs a straight up buff.

2. Even after fixing all bugs, there's no reason to build a Churchill over a Cromwell. It fails as a damage sponge, a defensive unit and it fails as a spearhead unit.

Anvil needs a buff, not just the Churchill. Really what am I paying 150mp and 50 fuel for when the whole side tech sucks ass.

1: double the canister arty AoE

2: increase the Churchill armour so it can reliably bounce volk shreks, slight nerf to HP. Drives at full speed during smoke ability

3: remove the heavy engineer speed debuff in combat now it costs 70muni

#makeUKFgreatagain

That doesn't make any sense.

If you think people are going to pick the tank that has less armour, less speed, less maneuverability, a worse gun, worse abilities and spends less time on the field because of the side techs then you are bonkers.

Picking it because it will give slightly less xp to the opposition is an even worse reason. In fact a hilariously bad one.

churchill triple nerfed. fuel, HP, and armor. Please give 1-2 of the prenerfs back. unviable vehicle. don't care about vet and what not. needs to do it's job. make axis feel the pain of RNG bounce shots that happens to t3476, t3485 on rear armor of KT, shermans. only reliable penetration is like UKF AT gun and 17 pounder.

Hammer gets:
- Emergency warspeed (which is damn awesome, but is not really useful once you've been snared)

Dude no other Allied faction got access to Blitz like the UK and Warspeed + Crommies spam absolutely shit on Axis forces. The ability to chase after blitz Panzers is something SU and USF can only dream of. About snare, use warspeed to crush em before they can get a shot off. The only problem is that going Hammer/Anvil is not viable in 1v1, you only get it after you got 2+ Crommies and Bolster/Weapon Rack.

Just revert the last round of Churchill nerfs. Things like the Croc's XP requirements and range (if I remember correctly)needed nerfing, but the units' costs and hard stats were in the right place.

My personal opinion is that the Churchill is still quite viable. I posit that the biggest reason people shy away from the Churchill is the psychological low-armour = bad-unit mental connection. With my OP I aim to correct this dissonance.

I can assure you I'm not avoiding the Churchill for psychological reasons - I'm avoiding it because economically it's a bad choice. Likewise I was avoiding anvil before I knew its abilities were bugged.

I simply don't think removing the vet pinata would make it any more viable than it is. It would make it less of an own goal, but it would still be one all the same. You simply can't be as situational as the Churchill is when you have a cost of 540mp/180fu and 18 pop cap. For reference, the patch I cited was the December patch where the fuel cost was changed from 150 to 180.

churchill is good with firefly behind but a comet does the work of the 2 better that s why no one go alvin