Remove Terminator Vet OR Buff Axis Elite

people crying about the m1919s haha

lmg grens are ok no probs sehr gut fritz

1 Lmg on a 4 man squad that gets annihilated when blobbed vs a 5 man squad with 2 lmgs that forms the basis of a gross US meta. k

Cause this is Monday, official forums should be ready soon™ and somehow this thread has 76 post i'll try to fix it up.

First of all a TL;DR:
Show Spoiler

PD: use paragraphs and b/ i/ u/.

OP is complaining mainly about vet3 double 1919 rifles and cons (lol) blobs. Squad pacing affecting 4 man squads and OH having no "elite" infantry.

I'm gonna transform this into something more reasonable:

+1

its the FRP that also makes riflemen>grens

ability to remain on the front line over grens.

Remove FRP, or change how the weapon racks work with the squads...

terminator infantry with nearly every advantage possible..

its the FRP that also makes riflemen>grens

ability to remain on the front line over grens.

Remove FRP, or change how the weapon racks work with the squads...

terminator infantry with nearly every advantage possible..

Grens are able to stay on field quite well too.

Just 251 isn't exactly in favor due to light tank rush meta.

Grens are able to stay on field quite well too.

Just 251 isn't exactly in favor due to light tank rush meta.

i agree with you, but when i use the 251, the amount of micro required is insane, to keep it close enough to reinf but far enough so its paper armor doesn't get shot at, most importantly, a pinned gren will have to retreat all the way back, compared to a pinned rifle..... 251 doesn't heal surrounding units... major/ambulance, does...

the problem is the uphill battle from the start of the game, axis always having to react to the allies. axis has what, one unit that is a shock unit and thats the p2. not even the same army of my previous post..

its the FRP that also makes riflemen>grens

ability to remain on the front line over grens.

Remove FRP, or change how the weapon racks work with the squads...

terminator infantry with nearly every advantage possible..

Oh I completely agree with you! Please get rid of OKW FRP too! This would reduce the ability of both riflemen and volks blobs ability to come back quickly onto the field.

you all ate the bait

gg no re

you all ate the bait

gg no re

No one will take yours tough.

Oh wait, I just did that.

i agree with you, but when i use the 251, the amount of micro required is insane, to keep it close enough to reinf but far enough so its paper armor doesn't get shot at, most importantly, a pinned gren will have to retreat all the way back, compared to a pinned rifle..... 251 doesn't heal surrounding units... major/ambulance, does...

the problem is the uphill battle from the start of the game, axis always having to react to the allies. axis has what, one unit that is a shock unit and thats the p2. not even the same army of my previous post..

I almost wonder if moving the 251 to the main headquarters and keeping the flamethrower upgrade behind battle phase 2 or something would be a good way to make it more viable, basically a Universal Carrier with less armor that can replenish infantry but gets killed by everything under the sun.

Con blob made me chuckle, but 2x 1919 is an issue. I'd rather see rifles only able to equip one with slightly better performance then the LMG42 (it costs 70 and assumably would require it to occupy both weapon slots to work). Still strong, but far more manageable.

L2P.

Mix obers and volks, add a sturmpio with minesweepers and you can steamroll the map.

Useless allied rockets are so slow they wont even hit you.

USF rifle's are too strong, they can do everything and with easy staying on field from the start with ambulance, make them really good.

Smoke grenade should cost more munitions too (10muni for skill that negate mg42 totally is too cheap).

USF rifle's are too strong, they can do everything and with easy staying on field from the start with ambulance, make them really good.

Smoke grenade should cost more munitions too (10muni for skill that negate mg42 totally is too cheap).

Sure they are too strong!

They should rely more on these early game weapon crews like Ost, Sov or UKF!
Oh wait...

They should rely on locked in another tier stock elite infantry like axis armies!
Wait...

They should rely on early arriving, supplementing them doctrinal elite infantry like OKW or Sov!
Wait a sec...

They should rely on that T0/right of the bat T1 early vehicle like OKW, USF or Sov!
Oh wait...

Pull your head out of your rear.
They don't start with nades, contrary to all axis infantry, they need to invest fuel to get them, just like they need to to get weapons. No one starts with ambulance, because its beyond retarded and smoke doesn't cost 10 muni and yes, it negates MG42, because that is its friggin purpose-whining about it is equally stupid as whining about sniper sniping models.

While I agree with the general idea of what OP is saying (insane vet is insane), it's really only terrible when playing as Ost. Grens get brutally outscaled, to the point where they become incredibly hard to use.

Just look at the stats:
Grens: 4 man squad, 240/30mp, 1 purchasable upgrade slot (Long AI)
Rifles: 5 man squad, 280/28mp, 2 purchasable slots (AT, Close AI, Long AI)
Infantry Section: 4-5 man squad, 280/28mp, iirc 2 purchasable slots (AT, Long AI)
Conscripts: 6 man squad, 240/20mp, 2-3 purchasable slots (3x PPSH, 2x PTRS)

Early game, yea, their survivability isn't an issue do to very high long-range DPS (except vs. tommies), but by late game, they're insanely weak. Losing ONE model cuts DPS by 25% (vs. 20 to 17% for everyone else), they can only buy one upgrade (and pick up a second one) vs. everyone else being able to buy 2-3 and their upgrade is ONLY good vs. Infantry at LONG range (vs. AT, Close, medium and long AI).

Add to that the AI's tendency to group up making the 4 models much more likely to take heavy losses to AoE (in terms of squad %), resulting in a quicker retreat (less models to lose), and a higher reinforce (why!?), they end up getting pushed around a LOT by late game.

Seriously; try it. Get a vet 3 1x LMG gren squad in yellow vs. a Vet 3 2x BAR or M1918 rifle squad in yellow and see what happens. MP cost they are 7.7% more expensive per model in initial cost AND reinforce per model; but they'll lose every single time (the base cost on rifles gets you an extra model and thus more HP).

However, IMO, the solution isn't to nerf vet (although some of it needs to be looked at). Instead, gives Grens a "bolster squad" upgrade that simply gives them +1 model, and +1 purchasable upgrade slot (so I can buy a 2nd LMG).

While I agree with the general idea of what OP is saying (insane vet is insane), it's really only terrible when playing as Ost. Grens get brutally outscaled, to the point where they become incredibly hard to use.

Just look at the stats:
Grens: 4 man squad, 240/30mp, 1 purchasable upgrade slot (Long AI)
Rifles: 5 man squad, 280/28mp, 2 purchasable slots (AT, Close AI, Long AI)
Infantry Section: 4-5 man squad, 280/28mp, iirc 2 purchasable slots (AT, Long AI)
Conscripts: 6 man squad, 240/20mp, 2-3 purchasable slots (3x PPSH, 2x PTRS)

Early game, yea, their survivability isn't an issue do to very high long-range DPS (except vs. tommies), but by late game, they're insanely weak. Losing ONE model cuts DPS by 25% (vs. 20 to 17% for everyone else), they can only buy one upgrade (and pick up a second one) vs. everyone else being able to buy 2-3 and their upgrade is ONLY good vs. Infantry at LONG range (vs. AT, Close, medium and long AI).

Add to that the AI's tendency to group up making the 4 models much more likely to take heavy losses to AoE (in terms of squad %), resulting in a quicker retreat (less models to lose), and a higher reinforce (why!?), they end up getting pushed around a LOT by late game.

Seriously; try it. Get a vet 3 1x LMG gren squad in yellow vs. a Vet 3 2x BAR or M1918 rifle squad in yellow and see what happens. MP cost they are 7.7% more expensive per model in initial cost AND reinforce per model; but they'll lose every single time (the base cost on rifles gets you an extra model and thus more HP).

However, IMO, the solution isn't to nerf vet (although some of it needs to be looked at). Instead, gives Grens a "bolster squad" upgrade that simply gives them +1 model, and +1 purchasable upgrade slot (so I can buy a 2nd LMG).

Luckily, you don't have to rely of grenspam to deal with lmg rifles. The lack of grenades with these units and the very low on the move dps make the LMG rifles very vulnerable to the HMG+sniper combo.

Also why do you completely neglect G43 upgrades but put PTRS up as an upgrade for conscripts?

As for your solution: 5 gren double LMGs would be insane. They would vastly outperform double lmg rifles despite being cheaper to buy, cheaper to upgrade, and require no doctrine to get. USF also has no snipers or any elite infantry to counter them. They would also walk over Soviets, who not only have no stock elite infantry, they also do not get stock weapon upgrades. Their sniper is also not that good compared to the Ostheer one.

But seriously though: Wehr has the counters to 2x LMG rifles. Giving them the firepower to just straight up kill the most expensive infantry squads in the game with their own basic infantry will just wreck balance and cause even more power-creep.

Vet doesn't even work right now. Calm down

What Mittens said, basically.

Cruzzi recently discovered that Veterancy actually doesn't apply correctly. Read and weep:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/36347/cruzz-s-the-more-you-know/post/493034

The bug COMPLETELY wrecks British infantry, and also hits Axis infantry quite hard.

(yes, Relic is already working on fixing it for the Feb 25 patch right now)

actually, the terminator vet is one of the few vet that's actually working. The issue with weapon bonus doesn't affect the dodging bonus.

While I agree with the general idea of what OP is saying (insane vet is insane), it's really only terrible when playing as Ost. Grens get brutally outscaled, to the point where they become incredibly hard to use.

Just look at the stats:
Grens: 4 man squad, 240/30mp, 1 purchasable upgrade slot (Long AI)
Rifles: 5 man squad, 280/28mp, 2 purchasable slots (AT, Close AI, Long AI)
Infantry Section: 4-5 man squad, 280/28mp, iirc 2 purchasable slots (AT, Long AI)
Conscripts: 6 man squad, 240/20mp, 2-3 purchasable slots (3x PPSH, 2x PTRS)

Early game, yea, their survivability isn't an issue do to very high long-range DPS (except vs. tommies), but by late game, they're insanely weak. Losing ONE model cuts DPS by 25% (vs. 20 to 17% for everyone else), they can only buy one upgrade (and pick up a second one) vs. everyone else being able to buy 2-3 and their upgrade is ONLY good vs. Infantry at LONG range (vs. AT, Close, medium and long AI).

Add to that the AI's tendency to group up making the 4 models much more likely to take heavy losses to AoE (in terms of squad %), resulting in a quicker retreat (less models to lose), and a higher reinforce (why!?), they end up getting pushed around a LOT by late game.

Seriously; try it. Get a vet 3 1x LMG gren squad in yellow vs. a Vet 3 2x BAR or M1918 rifle squad in yellow and see what happens. MP cost they are 7.7% more expensive per model in initial cost AND reinforce per model; but they'll lose every single time (the base cost on rifles gets you an extra model and thus more HP).

However, IMO, the solution isn't to nerf vet (although some of it needs to be looked at). Instead, gives Grens a "bolster squad" upgrade that simply gives them +1 model, and +1 purchasable upgrade slot (so I can buy a 2nd LMG).

You'd be right if Ost didn't had access to best HMG in game and sniper.
But they do, no one in his right mind spams grens vs rifles, because thats about the worst thing you can do. Rifles hardcounter grens, not the other way around.

Ost have way more tools at any time then other any allied faction, USF have rifles exclusively at early game. Obviously rifles will beat grens at all stages, that is their intended role and balance.

You can't have wide selection of supporting units AND mainline infantry as strong as opponent, when opponent have ONLY that infantry to pay with.

Instead, give Grens a "bolster squad" upgrade that simply gives them +1 model, and +1 purchasable upgrade slot (so I can buy a 2nd LMG).

Totally agree. After this just remove Soviet faction from the game (it won't be needed) and balance will be achieved.

You'd be right if Ost didn't had access to best HMG in game and sniper.
But they do, no one in his right mind spams grens vs rifles, because thats about the worst thing you can do. Rifles hardcounter grens, not the other way around.

Ost have way more tools at any time then other any allied faction, USF have rifles exclusively at early game. Obviously rifles will beat grens at all stages, that is their intended role and balance.

You can't have wide selection of supporting units AND mainline infantry as strong as opponent, when opponent have ONLY that infantry to pay with.

USF do have access to the .50cal and other units beside the rifleman.

the whole "smoke and flank" meme is idiotic. It encourages the idea that the only valid unit for the American was the rifleman.

Buffing the rifleman instead of buffing stuff like the 57mm or the 50cal promote rifle spam.

While I agree with the general idea of what OP is saying (insane vet is insane), it's really only terrible when playing as Ost.

Isn't Vet mechanic broken atm ? Sooo... how could we say that it is Veterancy that makes those units terminators ?