OKW STILL OP

Its not ok for OKW to get free healing, repair station and Bofors buts its alright if USFs get free lieutenant with free Thompson and lmg, free captain with 2x free zooks, and a major with free FRP.
Gotcha

Edit: my apologies for assuming you don't think that's fair either. Perhaps that's also OP? Thoughts?

Sure it's not fine BUT free Ltn/Cpt + Mjr =/= free medics/repairs, free cut off defender, non-tech schrecks/nades, 60ammo ultra LMG32.

Its not ok for OKW to get free healing, repair station and Bofors buts its alright if USFs get free lieutenant with free Thompson and lmg, free captain with 2x free zooks, and a major with free FRP.
Gotcha

Edit: my apologies for assuming you don't think that's fair either. Perhaps that's also OP? Thoughts?

One issue at a time.

Relic tried to fix everything at once and we all know how it ended up.

Plus, you can NOT compare the impact of free medics to one additional squad, especially on faction that gets bonus menpower at the start in comparison to other armies, so its not like ost isn't completely without their own freebies here and don't even get me started on 0 side techs needed.

Eh, other then VOLKS + shreck problem the faction is pretty balance. I would even argue they Need a new infantry unit with dedicated AT to compensate for the lack of Shreck doom blobs.

One issue at a time.

Relic tried to fix everything at once and we all know how it ended up.

Plus, you can NOT compare the impact of free medics to one additional squad, especially on faction that gets bonus menpower at the start in comparison to other armies, so its not like ost isn't completely without their own freebies here and don't even get me started on 0 side techs needed.

But what is your opinion on USFs getting free units with tech?

Sure it's not fine BUT free Ltn/Cpt + Mjr =/= free medics/repairs, free cut off defender, non-tech schrecks/nades, 60ammo ultra LMG32.

Please dont think im trying to defend OKWs free stuff. I also think it needs side tech.

Medics should cost MP and munitions
Repairmen should cost MP and munitions
Flak gun should cost MP and fuel

yeah the only real issue is VOLK shrecks

Its not ok for OKW to get free healing, repair station and Bofors buts its alright if USFs get free lieutenant with free Thompson and lmg, free captain with 2x free zooks, and a major with free FRP.
Gotcha

Edit: my apologies for assuming you don't think that's fair either. Perhaps that's also OP? Thoughts?

I think that's also too powerful, and a big reason why I believe WFA was in the enda a case of power creep. The original factions need to bring back their enginner units to build tech buildings, the WFA ones can just tech up no strings attached and get free stuff out of the bargain. That's not differenciating factions, that's just unfair advantages IMO.

Personally, I would lock the free stuff (and maybe higher value units) behind more teching costs. For instance, when buying the OKW T4 (at a lesser cost than what is presently), you can build the P4 and JP4. For an upgrade, you unlock the flak cannon and the Panther. Kinda like how the Panzer Elite worked in CoH1.

This would give the WFA factions some much needed teching flexibility, and delay some of the OP stuff. You could do the same thing for USF: for example, their T3 doesn't give you the Captain and unlock the Stuart unless you pay an additional fee. The total cost would be a bit more expensive than the price they pay today This would potentially allow USF to go T2 and then shift to T3 to get AT guns, whereas T2 is a relative dead-end because of its lack of AT.

Lots of people say Ostheer teching is expensive. IMO it should be the standard. Rushing light vehicles or blobbing into call-ins is only interesting for so long, and cheap teching costs encourage both those playstyles.

I think that's also too powerful, and a big reason why I believe WFA was in the enda a case of power creep. The original factions need to bring back their enginner units to build tech buildings, the WFA ones can just tech up no strings attached and get free stuff out of the bargain. That's not differenciating factions, that's just unfair advantages IMO.

Personally, I would lock the free stuff (and maybe higher value units) behind more teching costs. For instance, when buying the OKW T4 (at a lesser cost than what is presently), you can build the P4 and JP4. For an upgrade, you unlock the flak cannon and the Panther. Kinda like how the Panzer Elite worked in CoH1.

This would give the WFA factions some much needed teching flexibility, and delay some of the OP stuff. You could do the same thing for USF: for example, their T3 doesn't give you the Captain and unlock the Stuart unless you pay an additional fee. The total cost would be a bit more expensive than the price they pay today This would potentially allow USF to go T2 and then shift to T3 to get AT guns, whereas T2 is a relative dead-end because of its lack of AT.

Lots of people say Ostheer teching is expensive. IMO it should be the standard. Rushing light vehicles or blobbing into call-ins is only interesting for so long, and cheap teching costs encourage both those playstyles.

I completely agree. Ost teching should definitely be the standard. I also loved PE from vcoh because they had a HUGE amount of options for how they teched up. They designed their teching order based on their playstyle and reaped the costs and benefits of their decisions. I wouldnt mind seeing more of that kind of thing in CoH2.

What they lost last patch:
-Panzerschreck got balanced at last
-Kubel no longer supresses
-Panther got a bit more expensive
-Sturmpio no longer 4 man shock troops
-Free base halftracks
-Fuel and munitions conversion

What they still have:
-5 veterancy levels
-Salvaging

What they gained:
-Kubel can cap and has better survivability
-An equal economy
-15 MINUTE KING TIGER

OKW actually WON in the last patch. I cannot stress how an equal economy is such a big gain for them. Before they had to get a Wehr ally to build caches for them to get an equal economy, now their economy could PARALLEL the allies.

''So what, their units are still expensive''

Which no longer counts, since they have an equal economy. Panthers have excellent survivabillity, so late game an OKW player could easily have 4 panthers, all veterans, with a hoard of resources to replace them.

This has driven their power to insane levels in late-game. I must remind you to watch the OKW video tutorial. The reason they have 5 vet levels was to compensate for their economy, but now they have the best of both worlds.

5 stars dont fucking matter when the levels of vet are the same as 3 star. Didn't you read the patch notes where Relic nerfed the vet bonuses essentially making 5 stars basically the same rewards as 3 stars when they gave OKW 100% resources. And yes OKW does have hoards of resources late game but so do other factions because both sides control the same fuelpoints the whole game.

I think that's also too powerful, and a big reason why I believe WFA was in the enda a case of power creep. The original factions need to bring back their enginner units to build tech buildings, the WFA ones can just tech up no strings attached and get free stuff out of the bargain. That's not differenciating factions, that's just unfair advantages IMO.

Personally, I would lock the free stuff (and maybe higher value units) behind more teching costs. For instance, when buying the OKW T4 (at a lesser cost than what is presently), you can build the P4 and JP4. For an upgrade, you unlock the flak cannon and the Panther. Kinda like how the Panzer Elite worked in CoH1.

This would give the WFA factions some much needed teching flexibility, and delay some of the OP stuff. You could do the same thing for USF: for example, their T3 doesn't give you the Captain and unlock the Stuart unless you pay an additional fee. The total cost would be a bit more expensive than the price they pay today This would potentially allow USF to go T2 and then shift to T3 to get AT guns, whereas T2 is a relative dead-end because of its lack of AT.

Lots of people say Ostheer teching is expensive. IMO it should be the standard. Rushing light vehicles or blobbing into call-ins is only interesting for so long, and cheap teching costs encourage both those playstyles.

Yeah I kinda agree on this. I remember someone making a thread where it shows Relic planning on adding tech costs for the flak cannon and other things that OKW gets for free after setting up their truck.

The 5 veterancy levels are now arguably better then the 3 vet, as they've been nerfed, but they are nothing to really gain an advantage in during combat. So no. I don't understand salvaging, it's border line useless/barely used, as the economy is actually somewhat decent now.

i would disagree with you about the vet not helping with combat
all okw "combat" infantry get to heal out of combat, that means you can skirmish, take some hits (RNG allowing not drop a model) and only soft retreat and heal up, ready to jump on the next skirmish in the enemy territory- or at the VERY least, your units heal up while retreating letting you simply reinforce and move out, no need to wait until them medics fellate each and EVERY model (i feel this is why shrek blobs are allowed to be so potent, as down time is minimal)

ive also FREQUENTLY used sturms stun nade to secure wipes on retreating groups ( a well timed stun nade halts the retreat and requires another one to get to safety) and their medical supplies are miles ahead of first aid and let you keep up the pressure

at vet 3 the rakk gets guaranteed pen and bonus damage out of camo

flaktrak gets muni free smoke at vet 1

ober smoke is the bane of shock troops and rangers

HELL a couple vehicles can even disappear and run away!

okw have beyond powerful vet and greatly out match that of the ther factions with no drawbacks

AND

use salvage
seriously
EVERY wreck or weapon you dont want

its FREE fuel
meaning the okw economy isnt simply on par with everyone else's... its SUPERIOR

by the time my tiers are built sometimes ive salvaged nearly 50 fuel or more in some games ( effectively making that vet 4 luch that ran over a mine after 50 infantry kills cost 15 fuel), all at the low low cost of also getting 5 levels of vet and sexy bonuses when i tech up

But what is your opinion on USFs getting free units with tech?

Depends and its not really a simple answer.

On one hand, without it USF would have similar field presence to UKF(and we all know how well lack of additional menpower on the field affects UKF early game AND they have more options for early game then USF), on the other, its mandatory to offset OKW early game goodies, without them Ost will have more breading room, but OKW will just walk over USF with volkspam+call-in inf/obers and simply overwhelm USF with both, inf and armor.

With OKW how it is, they are mandatory.
When OKW will be brought down to the level of other armies in regards to costs and side costs as well as unit presence(remember OKW gets 100 more mp at the start of the game for no other reason then fuck you, which was compensation for lower resources).

We'll take care of all that OKW welfare and we can reevaluate on USF.

I am getting a bit bored playing OKW - I tried all possible combinations of tactics, but I noticed that in the end, it works best to just get Shreks on 3-4-5xVolks, spread them apart, get luchs, get Panther, get Panther, get Panther and victory.

OKW does really need a reevaluation. There's tons of tools/toys which are just useless, considering Volks and Panthers do all the jobs perfectly. I started playing even without a particular doctrine!

At least it is fun to fight SOVs, as they always pop with some kind of weird tactic I did not expect. I got rolled over by a swarm of 76s earlier. First time I see these tanks in my four months of CoH2

It's time Relic took another bite of the bullet and reintroduced stuff from COH1 which should never have been excluded. e.g. reintroduction of the kettenkraft in its various forms....or degun the Kubel and reintroduce ...the Bike!

The OKW are just incredibly boring. You know almost exactly what they're going to do and that unless they screw up it's going to work.

Who would have thought that changing the core design of a faction without making any other significant changes would be a bad idea?

I am getting a bit bored playing OKW - I tried all possible combinations of tactics, but I noticed that in the end, it works best to just get Shreks on 3-4-5xVolks, spread them apart, get luchs, get Panther, get Panther, get Panther and victory.

OKW does really need a reevaluation. There's tons of tools/toys which are just useless, considering Volks and Panthers do all the jobs perfectly. I started playing even without a particular doctrine!

At least it is fun to fight SOVs, as they always pop with some kind of weird tactic I did not expect. I got rolled over by a swarm of 76s earlier. First time I see these tanks in my four months of CoH2

Yea, I think this is the problem. I suck, but have been playing okw without blobs for a while in 3v3+ I struggled a lot trying out all their tools. I've decided to go all in on shreck blobs and panthers. So far it seems to be way better.

Trying to use all their other stuff is so much harder when the allies basically have superior combined arms.

i would disagree with you about the vet not helping with combat
all okw "combat" infantry get to heal out of combat, that means you can skirmish, take some hits (RNG allowing not drop a model) and only soft retreat and heal up, ready to jump on the next skirmish in the enemy territory- or at the VERY least, your units heal up while retreating letting you simply reinforce and move out, no need to wait until them medics fellate each and EVERY model (i feel this is why shrek blobs are allowed to be so potent, as down time is minimal)

ive also FREQUENTLY used sturms stun nade to secure wipes on retreating groups ( a well timed stun nade halts the retreat and requires another one to get to safety) and their medical supplies are miles ahead of first aid and let you keep up the pressure

at vet 3 the rakk gets guaranteed pen and bonus damage out of camo

flaktrak gets muni free smoke at vet 1

ober smoke is the bane of shock troops and rangers

HELL a couple vehicles can even disappear and run away!

okw have beyond powerful vet and greatly out match that of the ther factions with no drawbacks

AND

use salvage
seriously
EVERY wreck or weapon you dont want

its FREE fuel
meaning the okw economy isnt simply on par with everyone else's... its SUPERIOR

by the time my tiers are built sometimes ive salvaged nearly 50 fuel or more in some games ( effectively making that vet 4 luch that ran over a mine after 50 infantry kills cost 15 fuel), all at the low low cost of also getting 5 levels of vet and sexy bonuses when i tech up

Well I mean, I wouldn't say all okw cmbat infatry do. Even though sturms are a utility unit they still fill a combat niche. If counting doctrinal units, only the FSJ have auto heal on vet. JLI and panzerfusiliers don't. Which means okw is 3 for 3 in heals.

As for the salvage I agree it's very good, but 50 fuel at the end of a 30 minute game really isn't a big deal. And this somewhat compensates for okw being unable to build caches.

5 stars dont fucking matter when the levels of vet are the same as 3 star. Didn't you read the patch notes where Relic nerfed the vet bonuses essentially making 5 stars basically the same rewards as 3 stars when they gave OKW 100% resources.

-Obers can suppress at vet 5, at vet 4 they have permanent sprint.
-stuka reload gets very fast as they vet.
-Vet 5 volks become anti-everything with AT.
-Sturmpio have stun grenades.

The same? The same? I don't see shocks get permanent sprint and supression at vet 3.

Katyusha doesn't fire in single salvo or have incendiary at vet 3.

Cons that survive into vet 3 dont become anti-everything with AT.

Your argument is so full of bias.

Did you even saw shock vet bonuses? The last time i saw that, they where ridiculous low