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[Relic blog] Game Balance: The State of 1v1 for ESL

26 Dec 2015, 07:29 AM
#21
avatar of United

Posts: 253

Its great that Relic are doing more for Coh2.
26 Dec 2015, 08:21 AM
#22
avatar of carloff

Posts: 301

Win ratio of the top 250 players from the week for 1x1.

Rest of community (let's say it's kinda 5-6k(5000-6000) of players are not counted. Nice version of STATE of BALANCE.

MVGame
26 Dec 2015, 09:02 AM
#23
avatar of pugzii

Posts: 513

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Dec 2015, 08:21 AMcarloff
Win ratio of the top 250 players from the week for 1x1.

Rest of community (let's say it's kinda 5-6k(5000-6000) of players are not counted. Nice version of STATE of BALANCE.

MVGame


Some factions (UKF) are hard to play to their advantages and shitty players usually get steamrolled with them. This takes into account a better picture of balance while disregarding potential design problems (skill level for certain factions).
26 Dec 2015, 09:10 AM
#24
avatar of some one

Posts: 935

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Dec 2015, 08:21 AMcarloff
Win ratio of the top 250 players from the week for 1x1.

Rest of community (let's say it's kinda 5-6k(5000-6000) of players are not counted. Nice version of STATE of BALANCE.

MVGame


Yes this is how it should be done.



I see right through you. Уou play 2 vs 2 and above with random teams. It is totally different game.
26 Dec 2015, 09:29 AM
#25
avatar of carloff

Posts: 301


Yes this is how it should be done.

I see right through you. Уou play 2 vs 2 and above with random teams. It is totally different game.

I get your poitn, but can't agree with it. Look, if you want statistic for something you need to take info as much as you can from current pool. This 250 players are not correct pool for the game, they are just little more than 4% of all players here.

So you think 4% is really a balance state?
26 Dec 2015, 09:36 AM
#26
avatar of Jadame!

Posts: 1122

And you seriously think that players who lose to their inability to play properly and have no understanding of game whatsoever is relevant in balance terms? Balance is designed around top players for sole reason those players use everything possible to the full, and they are the only ones from whole metric whose wins or loses greatly influenced by numbers in unit stats.
26 Dec 2015, 09:38 AM
#27
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 830

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Dec 2015, 19:38 PMGiaA


That's because someone who can't reach top 250 in this game is absolutely clueless about its basic mechanics. There aren't even 250 active players. Rank >250 is basically bronze level in other games. Even Top 50 players can be really bad. I'd say that from rank 25 upwards there's a pretty decent skill level the ranks below that are occupied by people who don't fully understand this game. (I'm not talking about apm or anything like that, I'm talking about troop movement, decision making and similar things)


I think the problem isn't people not being able to reach top 250 due to being clueless, but rather people getting sick of playing relic's 'balance' patches that constantly shift balance instead of fixing it.

Top 50? Sure they have more knowledge, I sure as hell can't do what they can do. But to be honest, like so many others, I simply don't even want to put that amount of time and effort into this game, it is a shamble. I enjoy a match or three a week, that is it. Yet, even I can see the balance is wonky..
26 Dec 2015, 09:46 AM
#28
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 830

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Dec 2015, 05:30 AMTobis


The solution is L2P, not fuck up the balance.


Lol. If only if Relic read this two years ago, I am sure the game would have been fixed.

I remember people claiming players needed to 'l2p' with the UKF wiping wonders launch. Lol perhaps you were one of those lot.
26 Dec 2015, 15:02 PM
#29
avatar of Mithiriath
Director of Social Media Badge

Posts: 830 | Subs: 3

That's pretty darn good balance for 5 factions with many different mechanics and commanders to confuse things. Can't wait to see how much closer they can get it. One concern about even balance is stale gameplay. Maybe only one commander at high gameplay is ever viable, for instance. The dream would be balance within a couple % points, and multiple viable tactics and commanders that suit play styles.

One thing at a time though.

P.S. Is there somewhere to see the change log now that the official forums are down?


http://www.coh2.org/topic/4307/company-of-heroes-2-changelog ;)
26 Dec 2015, 15:05 PM
#30
avatar of Looney
Patrion 14

Posts: 444

Interesting stats, USF needs a buff I see :sibHyena:
26 Dec 2015, 15:07 PM
#31
avatar of Maschinengewehr

Posts: 334

So is this Relic's way of saying "STFU we're ready for #ESPORTZ!" or something then?

I can't facepalm any harder..
26 Dec 2015, 15:40 PM
#32
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4



Lol. If only if Relic read this two years ago, I am sure the game would have been fixed.

I remember people claiming players needed to 'l2p' with the UKF wiping wonders launch. Lol perhaps you were one of those lot.

"I'm not good enough to counter noob strategies from bad players."
This is the perfect example of when to L2P.
26 Dec 2015, 16:11 PM
#33
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

I might misunderstand your use of "active", but you can see precisely how many people are still playing ladder because inactive players are hidden from leaderboards. 1v1 has 2k-3k in each faction, while 4v4 is up towards 10k. I'm guessing most people don't play all game modes, or even all factions.


When he talks about "active", he is mostly referring to good players or at least those who were top 250 like 6 or more months ago. ATM it's too easy to rank up till top200 as few people are still playing.
26 Dec 2015, 16:55 PM
#34
avatar of RedDevilCG

Posts: 154

26 Dec 2015, 17:30 PM
#35
avatar of Mithiriath
Director of Social Media Badge

Posts: 830 | Subs: 3

Thanks!

Edit: last thread update was October? :(


This one then : http://www.companyofheroes-france.com/topic/1381-journal-des-mises-%C3%A0-jour
Titles are in French but changelogs are in english.
27 Dec 2015, 07:32 AM
#36
avatar of skemshead

Posts: 611

The games balanced when top 200 play because most MU's are one specific build order vs another, with main variables being initial capping order, micro, and trickery. Sure, everyone can get as good as the top 200 to enjoy balance. But what this means is memorizing specific strats that exploit extremely blatant holes in the poorly designed WFA and UKF.

In most good RTS games balance falls apart at the pro level, not the other way around. (Protoss for example.)

Soviet Maxim spam into T70 vs OKW, OKW aggressive cut off harassment vs USF into either tech, OKW fast luchs vs UKF. Really the only tactical and varied MU is Ost vs Soviet, because the factions are actually well designed.


I couldn't agree more. These figures grossly misrepresent the true state of the game (which is f***ed) and is little more than PR BS for the upcoming ESL games.

They could have release win loss percentages for different ranks, ie 0 - 200, 201 - 500, 500 - 1000.
They could also release data on faction MU, faction win rates for each map and each map position.
They could also release data for win rates with each commander.

They released these figures because of ESL, to validate the changes to OKW, to negate the negativity on the forums and because the figures support the perception of balance.



27 Dec 2015, 07:51 AM
#37
avatar of Otherside

Posts: 32

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Dec 2015, 09:29 AMcarloff

I get your poitn, but can't agree with it. Look, if you want statistic for something you need to take info as much as you can from current pool. This 250 players are not correct pool for the game, they are just little more than 4% of all players here.

So you think 4% is really a balance state?


that 4% are the people you should be balancing the game off your balance off the top not the bottom.
27 Dec 2015, 08:54 AM
#38
avatar of sluzbenik

Posts: 879

Honestly, they should only take the stats of the top 50 players but given how small the player base is that's statistically questionable.

Above 250 - your understanding of the game is competent.
Above 50 - your CPM and multitasking are competent.

I used to play 1v1 - but I hit my skill cap due to age a long time ago. At a certain level there's no amount of clever play or surprises that will put your opponent off-balance enough to make up for slow retreats or generally low CPM/multitasking.

27 Dec 2015, 09:06 AM
#39
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Don't let the charts fool you, top players know how to counter almost everything. If we take the player base outside of the 250 top range, things will go south very quickly.


Whaaat?

Good players know how to play and the game is balanced around them? HOW COME!

No one gives a rats ass about balance in 4 digit brackets, because these people lack the basic skill in game and can't be considered as any valid source of data other then "total mp population".

Games are not balanced around noobs, because noobs problems are in no way related to balance.
27 Dec 2015, 09:18 AM
#40
avatar of strafniki

Posts: 558 | Subs: 1

its called OPW for a reason
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