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LeIG AND Packhowitzer are useless without auto facing

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21 Oct 2015, 05:58 AM
#141
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

Why change gameplay and micro actions instead of just nerfing the unit itself?
It's the same with the Jagdtiger/ISU - it's just stress to babysit single units because they cannot act on their own (which is in addition not realistic because all other units somehow can).

I like mortars because they keep a constant barrage on my enemy that is not op but annoys him. The new LeIG is more annoying for me and in addition all the bugs and issues make it even harder to play (LeIG simply walking to the enemy instead of shooting, etc.)

I'd like to see the LeIG as it was before the suppression addition.
Less cost (About 300) and you have some kind of Mortar for OKW.

That's all people want.


You nailed it. Remove that supression shit, let it snipe models as before with autofire and it will be fine.
21 Oct 2015, 06:06 AM
#142
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2015, 02:41 AMCieZ


What needs to happen (in my opinion):

Relic needs to decide the role of these units. Should they be long-range suppression machines designed to stop/slow down blobs of units? Then they need to be able to suppress reliably but not bleed. I do not like this solution as suppression implemented in such a manner (i.e. with little to no real counter-play) does not reward the more skilled player but if that is the design intent behind these units... so be it. Give them a large amount of suppression but lower damage so that they do not bleed opponents.

Alternatively they could be more akin to mortars. In general I try to shy away from symmetric balance as I believe asymmetric balance is more interesting, but sometimes a line has to be drawn. Every faction should have access to efficient indirect fire units, lest the game become a WW I simulator where everyone digs in with stupid amounts of HMGs, bunkers and weapon teams. I am in the camp that believes static game play to be less exciting to watch as well as less rewarding for the better player. Both of these notions go against the idea of game play that could foster a competitive scene.

By removing the suppression from these units they would be able to serve as indirect fire support in much the same way that mortars currently do without forcing constant retreats and consistently swinging the tide of unwinnable engagements due to their suppression. They could counter garrisons, HMGs, and AT guns.

Of course there could be more complicated solutions and I think everyone should put forth their solutions so that Relic can have a greater pool of ideas to draw inspiration from.

Perhaps giving only the barrage suppression while increasing the cooldown considerably would be fair. This way you can push a blob with a well timed barrage or win an important engagement but the auto-fire would no longer play the game for you. This would also increase the potential for counter-play as an opponent could time other pushes around the cooldown between barrages.

The bottom line is - I think Relic needs to decide what role they want these units to fulfill and then design them around that. Having a unit that acts as a long range MG and mortar with the potential to one-shot squads (mostly the Pack Howi) that requires no micro to use and presents little to no real counter-play is a disaster.


Ciez, you are one of the verry verry few reasonable people around here while almost always giving the correct solutions. I would realy like to see you involved in such matters more often. Bravo, I fully agree to your analyse. :clap:
21 Oct 2015, 06:08 AM
#143
avatar of Vinyl41

Posts: 97

CieZ for El Presidente
21 Oct 2015, 06:21 AM
#144
avatar of Iron Emperor

Posts: 1653

Hopefully relic gets some brains and listen to ciez.
21 Oct 2015, 08:22 AM
#145
avatar of Marcus2389
Developer Relic Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 4559 | Subs: 2

Yeah I pretty much agree with you Ciez.
21 Oct 2015, 09:08 AM
#146
avatar of Trubbbel

Posts: 721

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2015, 02:41 AMCieZ
Furthermore since there is generally no great way to get out of suppression/pin in the middle of combat you are generally forced to retreat units constantly. Time is a valuable resource in RTS, especially in CoH 2 where time is directly correlated to map control due to the capping mechanics. Having such reliable suppression at such long range with such a high amount of map coverage in a 1v1 is just absurd. Currently these units are basically extremely long range MGs that inflict considerable bleed without exposing themselves to any real danger.

Quoted for truth.

What are the stats and veterancy for all mainline infantry in the game now anyway? Where to find? Especially interested to find veterancy data. I completely understand that the people creating the spreadsheets and the coh2-stats might not have the energy to update with the constant changes going on. So where to go look from now on?
21 Oct 2015, 09:51 AM
#147
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

Remove completly autofire - big buffs for barrage?
21 Oct 2015, 09:54 AM
#148
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Remove completly autofire - big buffs for barrage?

I'd love to see that for PACK howi, 6-8 short barrage, current cooldown and vet.

No idea what to do with ISG though, same treatment doesn't seem suitable, it'll always be a problem as long as it have 100 range and pinpoint accuracy, hardcountering anything that stops for a second for a firefight in cover.
21 Oct 2015, 10:59 AM
#149
avatar of Iron Emperor

Posts: 1653

remove pin + autofacing back to both will do the unit just great
21 Oct 2015, 13:11 PM
#150
avatar of Puppetmaster
Patrion 310

Posts: 871

The first (and biggest) thing they need to fix is the accuracy. They shouldn't be able to snipe model(s) like they currently do. Reduced accuracy would imo go a long way to preventing pins.
21 Oct 2015, 13:38 PM
#151
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

21 Oct 2015, 14:16 PM
#152
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

+1 Ciez

Australian I agree with Katitof that buffs to barrage on Pack makes sense, but ISG is not likely to be well balanced that way. The unit is really intended to act more like a mortar. The earlier solution of converting it to a direct fire weapon is interesting.

JohnnyB why provide a complement to someone by putting down every other player on the forum? That seems rude to the nth degree.
21 Oct 2015, 14:20 PM
#153
avatar of Quercus

Posts: 47

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2015, 02:41 AMCieZ
Perhaps giving only the barrage suppression while increasing the cooldown considerably would be fair. This way you can push a blob with a well timed barrage or win an important engagement but the auto-fire would no longer play the game for you. This would also increase the potential for counter-play as an opponent could time other pushes around the cooldown between barrages.

That's a good compromise - remove all pinning and suppression from standard fire but have some suppression with an activated barrage ability that costs munitions is less accurate and has a cool-down period.
21 Oct 2015, 16:40 PM
#154
avatar of niutudis

Posts: 276

Wasn´t the "suppressive barrage"-compromise already suggested a few pages ago in this thread?

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2015, 12:30 PMnee
Some thoughts in response to some posts

-Keep auto-facing, but remove suppression in automatic fire;
-Suppression occurs only when you manually barrage a target area; the barrage can be renamed "Suppressive Barrage".

Other ways to improve:

-Reduce turning speed of these weapons so while you may still auto-face, there is slower response to detected units in range;
-Turning speed can be increased as part of veterancy buffs.

This way, you get a unit that can suitably perform by itself, but certainly far less optimal than if you micromanaged it yourself.
21 Oct 2015, 17:52 PM
#155
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2015, 09:54 AMKatitof

I'd love to see that for PACK howi, 6-8 short barrage, current cooldown and vet.

No idea what to do with ISG though, same treatment doesn't seem suitable, it'll always be a problem as long as it have 100 range and pinpoint accuracy, hardcountering anything that stops for a second for a firefight in cover.
For lieg they should remove suppression and maybe a bit of range, then give it a direct fire mode, where it loses damage but deals suppression. Basically a mortar, MG hybrid. OKW could use a suppression unit.
21 Oct 2015, 17:57 PM
#156
avatar of IJHicks_XI

Posts: 32

I think relic should look at the root of the issue with both of these as to why they are actually built currently and what they need to do with other units.

Currently the biggest issue people are saying is pinning units on a single hit at long range.... we can all agree these do this fantastically in most cases...

So the root of the issue is OKW and US do not have a reliable platform to suppress charging head on blobs... Kubel/MG34 and .50cal do not reliably suppress blobs charging as 90% of the time hit halt and hit off with grenades etc then the blob continues.

I think relic needs to supply OKW and US a more reliable suppression platform then the Pak and LEIG can have suppression removed keep everything else the same for them (Damage/Cost) although I feel the US Pak should get a slight increase to it's normal range.
23 Oct 2015, 13:36 PM
#157
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

I think the biggest problem OKW has is the massive infantry attacks form Allies. The only solution I see is to buff the MG-34 or just give them MG-42 all together. The whole reason why we had the suppression on the LEIG was to stop blobing.
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