LeIG AND Packhowitzer are useless without auto facing

Why didnt pre patch infantry support guns end infantry play? Why caN'T we fucking have that version back. Not this overnerfed piece of shit lelic gave us.

Why didnt pre patch infantry support guns end infantry play? Why caN'T we fucking have that version back. Not this overnerfed piece of shit lelic gave us.

I'd argue them being overnerfed as long as they shoot heat seeking rounds.
Relic nerfed every single stat, except for the one that caused all the problems in the first place.

It should not be able to pin. Pinning from a long range distance is just insanity.
Supressing after a few shots is ok, but not pinning.

Why change gameplay and micro actions instead of just nerfing the unit itself?
It's the same with the Jagdtiger/ISU - it's just stress to babysit single units because they cannot act on their own (which is in addition not realistic because all other units somehow can).

I like mortars because they keep a constant barrage on my enemy that is not op but annoys him. The new LeIG is more annoying for me and in addition all the bugs and issues make it even harder to play (LeIG simply walking to the enemy instead of shooting, etc.)

I'd like to see the LeIG as it was before the suppression addition.
Less cost (About 300) and you have some kind of Mortar for OKW.

That's all people want.

we had isg once for 330 with old stats people claimed it was op so relic patched it back to 400
its kinda funny that relic first fucks it up now doesnt want to admit that they had a bad idea with the buffs and they tryhard to make it somehow work - its kinda funny and tragic

I guess what they want to remove is the " I shot you down in 2/3 of the map from my T1/T3 secure area you can't take out without all your army"

Because removing suppression and putting back its stat to what it was pre-patch will not change the fact that its a unit you build and leave alone next to its healing point and super defensive structure and make its kill and disturbing army on its own.

In comparaison you need to micro any mortar you build, even pak howi being OP need more micro than the ISG.

Removing the auto-fire is the only way to not screw up all the OKW game mechanisms and force you to micro the unit.

Why change gameplay and micro actions instead of just nerfing the unit itself?
It's the same with the Jagdtiger/ISU - it's just stress to babysit single units because they cannot act on their own (which is in addition not realistic because all other units somehow can).

I like mortars because they keep a constant barrage on my enemy that is not op but annoys him. The new LeIG is more annoying for me and in addition all the bugs and issues make it even harder to play (LeIG simply walking to the enemy instead of shooting, etc.)

I'd like to see the LeIG as it was before the suppression addition.
Less cost (About 300) and you have some kind of Mortar for OKW.

That's all people want.

+111111

I hope it's clear to Relic that the PINNING needs to go asap.

Why change gameplay and micro actions instead of just nerfing the unit itself?
It's the same with the Jagdtiger/ISU - it's just stress to babysit single units because they cannot act on their own (which is in addition not realistic because all other units somehow can).

I like mortars because they keep a constant barrage on my enemy that is not op but annoys him. The new LeIG is more annoying for me and in addition all the bugs and issues make it even harder to play (LeIG simply walking to the enemy instead of shooting, etc.)

I'd like to see the LeIG as it was before the suppression addition.
Less cost (About 300) and you have some kind of Mortar for OKW.

That's all people want.

Exactly +1

They make infantry play against OKW just a pain. The guns automatically rotate pinning the infantry needed to counter the OKW blobs. They block off entire maps, automatically shooting making flanking and sneaking around impossible.

They are OK, in the preview balance patch not in the mainstream patch.

They make infantry play against OKW just a pain. The guns automatically rotate pinning the infantry needed to counter the OKW blobs. They block off entire maps, automatically shooting making flanking and sneaking around impossible.

Played a game against multiple LeIG and they suppressed everyone trying to advance pretty much. If suppression is there to stay I am now in favor of aiming the gun.

Remove supression/pinning and let them be accurate.
It's ok to kill 1-2-3 dudes with one shot from two, but please let the allied and axis blobberino to prosper and evolve, so that the "blobberino tactics" be in this game for ever! And I'm serious, too.

Why change gameplay and micro actions instead of just nerfing the unit itself?
It's the same with the Jagdtiger/ISU - it's just stress to babysit single units because they cannot act on their own (which is in addition not realistic because all other units somehow can).

I like mortars because they keep a constant barrage on my enemy that is not op but annoys him. The new LeIG is more annoying for me and in addition all the bugs and issues make it even harder to play (LeIG simply walking to the enemy instead of shooting, etc.)

I'd like to see the LeIG as it was before the suppression addition.
Less cost (About 300) and you have some kind of Mortar for OKW.

That's all people want.

Well said!

I'd like to get rid of the suppression and get the auto aim back.

+111111

I hope it's clear to Relic that the PINNING needs to go asap.

+1 how was that even considered a resonable idea?

Why didnt pre patch infantry support guns end infantry play? Why caN'T we fucking have that version back. Not this overnerfed piece of shit lelic gave us.

So WFA can have a sniper in their rosters
I dunno why we can't rollback to the stage it didn't hit with almost 100% accuracy and it only pinned when it hit dead center on a squad.

guys, assuming the stats were set right pinning is gone.

http://community.companyofheroes.com/forum/company-of-heroes-2/company-of-heroes-2-general-discussion/67-coh-2-changelog?p=225040#post225040

please catch up and stopping complaining about something that's supposed to be fixed.

if it's not fixed then say that it wasn't fixed instead of continuing to talk as if there were no changes made.

guys, assuming the stats were set right pinning is gone.

http://community.companyofheroes.com/forum/company-of-heroes-2/company-of-heroes-2-general-discussion/67-coh-2-changelog?p=225040#post225040

please catch up and stopping complaining about something that's supposed to be fixed.

if it's not fixed then say that it wasn't fixed instead of continuing to talk as if there were no changes made.

They shouldn't even be suppressing imo.

Just buff the 34 and make it non doctrinal. Make the kubel doctrinal, take away its suppression, give it more dmg, a bit more survivability, and more scouting abilities. Fix the bugs with the .50 cal, and, you know, make both the ISG's more akin to the other mortars, in both price and effectiveness.

Done. Simple. End of story, never to be visited again.

Played a game against multiple LeIG and they suppressed everyone trying to advance pretty much. If suppression is there to stay I am now in favor of aiming the gun.

If the LiG and PH are meant to be mortars then they should auto aim and be able to suppress. If the LiG are meant to be Hmgs they should be aimed and not suppress.

Going to try and keep this as short and sweet as I can...

Forcing players to manually face these units does not address the root of the problem, and neither does hitting them with a seven sided nerf. Good players will barely notice the "micro tax" in all but the most furious engagements - and even then selecting your control group and right clicking once is hardly difficult.

In my opinion what needs to be resolved in some manner is the suppression. Suppression is overwhelmingly powerful in CoH 2 especially given that being shot at by small arms extends the duration of suppression. This causes unwinnable engagements to be won with ease.

Infantry Sections dominate Volks at all ranges given equal cover... until the ISG hits. Rifles are strong against Volks early on... until the ISG hits. Double BAR vet 3 rifles should walk all over Volks... until the ISG hits. See the pattern here? Even more upsetting is that lack of control the player on the receiving end has over when/where the ISG is going to hit. You could be perfectly microing your units into advantageous green cover to win an engagement... and then the ISG hits. Have fun retreating. #OutplayedEz

Now I'm not saying that the suppression must go. Personally I'd like to see it removed given how accurate these units are now and how much bleed they can inflict on their own given proper management. However, the accuracy causing them to suppress/pin nearly every hit is what tends to break these units.

Furthermore since there is generally no great way to get out of suppression/pin in the middle of combat you are generally forced to retreat units constantly. Time is a valuable resource in RTS, especially in CoH 2 where time is directly correlated to map control due to the capping mechanics. Having such reliable suppression at such long range with such a high amount of map coverage in a 1v1 is just absurd. Currently these units are basically extremely long range MGs that inflict considerable bleed without exposing themselves to any real danger.

As I've said before, forcing manual facing addresses none of this. It is a poorly thought-out and lazy way to try and fix a unit. It unfairly punishes weaker/slower players while adding a mildly annoying "micro tax" to top level players.

What needs to happen (in my opinion):

Relic needs to decide the role of these units. Should they be long-range suppression machines designed to stop/slow down blobs of units? Then they need to be able to suppress reliably but not bleed. I do not like this solution as suppression implemented in such a manner (i.e. with little to no real counter-play) does not reward the more skilled player but if that is the design intent behind these units... so be it. Give them a large amount of suppression but lower damage so that they do not bleed opponents.

Alternatively they could be more akin to mortars. In general I try to shy away from symmetric balance as I believe asymmetric balance is more interesting, but sometimes a line has to be drawn. Every faction should have access to efficient indirect fire units, lest the game become a WW I simulator where everyone digs in with stupid amounts of HMGs, bunkers and weapon teams. I am in the camp that believes static game play to be less exciting to watch as well as less rewarding for the better player. Both of these notions go against the idea of game play that could foster a competitive scene.

By removing the suppression from these units they would be able to serve as indirect fire support in much the same way that mortars currently do without forcing constant retreats and consistently swinging the tide of unwinnable engagements due to their suppression. They could counter garrisons, HMGs, and AT guns.

Of course there could be more complicated solutions and I think everyone should put forth their solutions so that Relic can have a greater pool of ideas to draw inspiration from.

Perhaps giving only the barrage suppression while increasing the cooldown considerably would be fair. This way you can push a blob with a well timed barrage or win an important engagement but the auto-fire would no longer play the game for you. This would also increase the potential for counter-play as an opponent could time other pushes around the cooldown between barrages.

The bottom line is - I think Relic needs to decide what role they want these units to fulfill and then design them around that. Having a unit that acts as a long range MG and mortar with the potential to one-shot squads (mostly the Pack Howi) that requires no micro to use and presents little to no real counter-play is a disaster.

Stuff

Well summarized Ciez. I prefer the variant where suppression is removed. From your point of view, is there any reason not to add a smoke barrage for the leIG at vet 1?

I would argue it would add more tactical option for OKW, because at the moment there are only spare options to deploy smoke for assaults. Like the Assault Artillery from Breakthrough Doctrine.