A Proposal For Improving The Ostheer Metagame

I believe the following Ostheer changes would solve several major balance issues and improve the meta-game for all factions.

Wehrmacht Sniper moved to T2 - This change will prevent the Wehrmacht Sniper from inflicting massive manpower bleed on thre American and British players in the early-game.

PaK40 moved to T1 - This change will help the Wehrmacht counter the powerful Allied light vehicle mid-game. It will also allow the faction to skip T2, which is virtually impossible to do right now due to the dominance of Allied light vehicles like the Stuart and T70.

Panzerfausts require Battle Phase 1 rather than T1 - With the PaK40 moved to T1, the Wehrmacht will no longer require immediate access to Panzerfausts in order to hold off Allied vehicles like the Universal Carrier and the M3 Scout Car.

Wehrmacht Sniper cloak nerf reverted - With the Wehrmacht Sniper moved to T2, he no longer needs the super-long recloak time.

Moderate T3 building fuel cost increase - With the PaK40 moved to T1, many Wehrmacht players will choose to tech from T1 straight to T3 and rush armour. This change will make that strategy riskier and prevent Wehrmacht tanks from hitting the field too quickly.

Minus sniper cloak change, I like this. +1

Pretty sure Relic is making a point to promote light vehicle play, so I very much doubt they'd put the pak in T1 for that reason alone. All your other suggestions are based on that premise however, so I guess I'd disagree by default.

I honestly don't think drastic changes are needed for OH. Sure maybe a few tweaks in the numbers but I think they are in an ok spot. Didn't OH win 3 out of 5 games in the OCF finals? If they are disadvantaged it is by a very slim margin and I think nerfs to a few overperforming Allied units would be enough.

Wehrmacht Sniper cloak nerf - With the Wehrmacht Sniper moved to T2, he no longer needs the super-long recloak time.

The reason they actually nerfed this is because they wanted the British Sniper to be able to counter-snipe, and the Ostheer Sniper's re-cloak was faster than the British Sniper's aim time.

I believe the following Ostheer changes would solve several major balance issues and improve the meta-game for all factions.

Wehrmacht Sniper moved to T2 - This change will prevent the Wehrmacht Sniper from inflicting massive manpower bleed on thre American and British players in the early-game.

PaK40 moved to T1 - This change will help the Wehrmacht counter the powerful Allied light vehicle mid-game. It will also allow the faction to skip T2, which is virtually impossible to do right now due to the dominance of Allied light vehicles like the Stuart and T70.

Panzerfausts require Battle Phase 1 rather than T1 - With the PaK40 moved to T1, the Wehrmacht will no longer require immediate access to Panzerfausts in order to hold off Allied vehicles like the Universal Carrier and the M3 Scout Car.

Wehrmacht Sniper cloak nerf reverted - With the Wehrmacht Sniper moved to T2, he no longer needs the super-long recloak time.

Moderate T3 building fuel cost increase - With the PaK40 moved to T1, many Wehrmacht players will choose to tech from T1 straight to T3 and rush armour. This change will make that strategy riskier and prevent Wehrmacht tanks from hitting the field too quickly.

A lot of these changes are unnecessary and most of the issues you raise are l2p (no offense).

1. Sov m3 are not a huge issue, but will be if you think pak is a better counter than fausts. m3 will just drive behind pak and wipe it. Same applies to Universal Carrier. No faust means Ost will have to keep all squads together or else get wiped by anything on wheels.

2. If you cannot get a pak out before a t70 or Stuart your either getting outplayed , not preparing for it or just need to l2p.

3. I don't see sniper to be a huge issue early game vs usf and its only recently been nerfed so I think more time is needed to test those changes. Ukf is a different story, but fix brits, don't go changing other faction as there are always flow on effects. I would suggest changing the capping speed of the sniper.

4. As others have suggested, minor adjustments. Personally I would adjust the time to Tech and build buildings and maybe reduce pak build times.

Finally, I wish people would stop trying to change each faction so that they all have access to the same units at the same time. I mean its getting quite boring as it is with Sov having access to maxim and morters straight away, and brits opening with mgs, and some others want usf to have access to mg and morters to start with. The more units you give every faction access to at the begging not only makes every faction almost identical but a nightmare to balance.

I believe the following Ostheer changes would solve several major balance issues and improve the meta-game for all factions.

Wehrmacht Sniper moved to T2 - This change will prevent the Wehrmacht Sniper from inflicting massive manpower bleed on thre American and British players in the early-game.

PaK40 moved to T1 - This change will help the Wehrmacht counter the powerful Allied light vehicle mid-game. It will also allow the faction to skip T2, which is virtually impossible to do right now due to the dominance of Allied light vehicles like the Stuart and T70.

Panzerfausts require Battle Phase 1 rather than T1 - With the PaK40 moved to T1, the Wehrmacht will no longer require immediate access to Panzerfausts in order to hold off Allied vehicles like the Universal Carrier and the M3 Scout Car.

Wehrmacht Sniper cloak nerf reverted - With the Wehrmacht Sniper moved to T2, he no longer needs the super-long recloak time.

Moderate T3 building fuel cost increase - With the PaK40 moved to T1, many Wehrmacht players will choose to tech from T1 straight to T3 and rush armour. This change will make that strategy riskier and prevent Wehrmacht tanks from hitting the field too quickly.

All generally terrible ideas. These changes would totally screw Ostheer early game. When a M3, USF Jeep or Bren can be rushed instantly at them, they NEED that Faust... an easy and expensive to dodge pak will do no good. All propper AT guns are T2 for all factions. Gives incentive to tech.

German sniper recloack is perfect as it is now, so he can be countersniped.

T3 doesnt need a fuel cost increase. Costs the ostheer the same as it does brits to get to tanks.

1. Sov m3 are not a huge issue, but will be if you think pak is a better counter than fausts. m3 will just drive behind pak and wipe it. Same applies to Universal Carrier. No faust means Ost will have to keep all squads together or else get wiped by anything on wheels.

I know it's not a big issue. I was worried that if the PaK was moved to T1 it would make the M3 and Universal Carrier completely useless, so I thought it would be a good idea to make Panzerfausts require Battlephase 1.

2. If you cannot get a pak out before a t70 or Stuart your either getting outplayed , not preparing for it or just need to l2p.

The problem here isn't that you can't get a PaK out. It's that you're forced to go T2 by the six minute mark every single game. In other words, the current meta-game allows the Wehrmacht no teching flexibility whatsoever.

I figured that moving the Sniper to T2 would help the British out while also providing a reason for Wehrmacht players to build T2.

All popper AT guns are T2 for all factions. Gives incentive to tech.

This is blatantly false. The ZiS is accessible at T1 - Soviet "T2" is a tier-one building, as you well know. And using the non-word "popper" to avoid referencing the Racketenwerfer is silly. It serves the function of an anti-tank gun. Plus even the US 57mm is sort of tier-one, thing as teching straight to the Captain is possible.

The reason they actually nerfed this is because they wanted the British Sniper to be able to counter-snipe, and the Ostheer Sniper's re-cloak was faster than the British Sniper's aim time.

I didn't realize this. Good point.

I mean I agree that if you put him in T2 he should be stronger, but making him recloak faster, wil make him unkillable just like the old one was. I suggest higher RoF.

The problem here isn't that you can't get a PaK out. It's that you're forced to go T2 by the six minute mark every single game. In other words, the current meta-game allows the Wehrmacht no teching flexibility whatsoever.

I do acknowledge Usf/Sov can follow a predictable tech path but there just aren't to many other options. They must tech to M20/Stuart or M5/T70/su76 or they will likely loose. Imo sov T3 needs more adjustment and some changes to T4 to make other builds more appealing.

As for Ost, the changes you suggest will only result in another all too predictable meta, ie skipping t2.

Ostheer meta is pretty diverse, there are at least 4-5 commanders that seem viable and all the tiers and units seem good except sometimes pgs dont work(sometimes they do well) and t4 which is hurt by the massive price barrier and the brumbar being possibly the least cost effective unit in the game

These are small concerns compared to a faction like the soviets that has several underperforming t1 and t4 units in exchange for OP KV8s that can wipe squads in like 4 seconds

Or Even compare them to OKW which goes double ISG EVERY SINGLE GAME

The reason they actually nerfed this is because they wanted the British Sniper to be able to counter-snipe, and the Ostheer Sniper's re-cloak was faster than the British Sniper's aim time.

True, except that the sovjet sniper is currently overperforming with it's 3 sec cloack. All snipers to 3 sec cloack please relic

Ostheer meta is pretty diverse, there are at least 4-5 commanders that seem viable and all the tiers and units seem good except sometimes pgs dont work(sometimes they do well) and t4 which is hurt by the massive price barrier and the brumbar being possibly the least cost effective unit in the game

These are small concerns compared to a faction like the soviets that has several underperforming t1 and t4 units in exchange for OP KV8s that can wipe squads in like 4 seconds

Or Even compare them to OKW which goes double ISG EVERY SINGLE GAME

Also consider that when you meet the UK or USF that the okw player will go into fortification doctrine

True, except that the sovjet sniper is currently overperforming with it's 3 sec cloack. All snipers to 3 sec cloack please relic

It's more like all snipers should have 6 sec cloak instead because small arms are so bad against instacloak

I believe the following Ostheer changes would solve several major balance issues and improve the meta-game for all factions.

Wehrmacht Sniper moved to T2 - This change will prevent the Wehrmacht Sniper from inflicting massive manpower bleed on thre American and British players in the early-game.

PaK40 moved to T1 - This change will help the Wehrmacht counter the powerful Allied light vehicle mid-game. It will also allow the faction to skip T2, which is virtually impossible to do right now due to the dominance of Allied light vehicles like the Stuart and T70.

Tell us the true, you never played Ostheer and you don't like them and want to nerf them to the ground? Pak T1 and Faust delayed is probably the worst idea to improve Ostheer early game.

-Pak cost a lot of MP, 1+1/2 grenadier mp squad. So instead of 1Pio+1Mg+4Gr, you'll have 1Pio+1Mg+2Gr+1pak. Your field presence will be ridiculous and you'll bleed hard vs cons or rifles.
-No Faust mean M20 and M3 will ride freely on the battlefield and you'll have a hell of time to micro you pak to shot them 2 times.

And this, just to believe you'll be able to skip T2... No 222, no Pzgren and no 251. T1 Sov and T1 USF will become meta insta-win vs you.

Tell us the true, you never played Ostheer and you don't like them and want to nerf them to the ground? Pak T1 and Faust delayed is probably the worst idea to improve Ostheer early game.

The idea isn't to improve their early-game. It's to give them more teching flexibility and give them an easier time with light vehicles like the Stuart and T70.

-Pak cost a lot of MP, 1+1/2 grenadier mp squad. So instead of 1Pio+1Mg+4Gr, you'll have 1Pio+1Mg+2Gr+1pak. Your field presence will be ridiculous and you'll bleed hard vs cons or rifles.

So why the hell would you buy a PaK as your fourth unit against Conscripts and Rifles?

-No Faust mean M20 and M3 will ride freely on the battlefield and you'll have a hell of time to micro you pak to shot them 2 times.

Maybe, but even one PaK hit would force them to retreat and repair. And Panzerfausts at Battle Phase 1 still arrive pretty quickly - pretty much at the same time the M20 arrives.

And this, just to believe you'll be able to skip T2... No 222, no Pzgren and no 251. T1 Sov and T1 USF will become meta insta-win vs you.

You don't have to skip T2 with the above changes. It would just make it an option. Access to the 222 and 251 would be completely unchanged.

I agree, teching for Ost and USF should encourage more strategies and diversity, it's not balance but longevity and fun.

Also typo in the above post Carlos-you would unlock Faust had BP1, not 2.

Is there really a need for a PaK40 earlier than it arrives already?

Also typo in the above post Carlos-you would unlock Faust had BP1, not 2.

Fixed. Thanks.

Is there really a need for a PaK40 earlier than it arrives already?

No, not really. But this isn't about timings - it's about giving the Ostheer more teching flexibility. And it solves the Sniper issue.

No, not really. But this isn't about timings - it's about giving the Ostheer more teching flexibility. And it solves the Sniper issue.

Oh, then I misunderstood your argument, but you can understand my confusion when you use a phrase like, dominance of allied light vehicles.

This seems more like nerf the Ostheer and giving some little bufs to hide the obvious irritations you have with the faction xd

Or am I completely wrong?