Pak40 to T1 - it's needed.

Pak 40 to T1, sniper to T2

Everyone happy \/

And USF and sov scout cars to T0 to balance that against "I don't need another tier for 20 minutes" ost?

And USF and sov scout cars to T0 to balance that against "I don't need another tier for 20 minutes" ost?

Christ another shit post from you. cant you just be banned or something.

Christ another shit post from you. cant you just be banned or something.

Atleast he talks sense and has some humour. Your sat here defending the idea of pak40 going to t1 lmfao you lost all credibility you would ever have, you should make a new account.

I'm ok with PaK at Ost T1, on the following conditions:

-Faust becomes a manpower and fuel upgrade, like all allied factions.
-Ost sniper is moved to T2.

No just no, if ost get a pack in tier 1 there will be no counters left for the sniper with the british. And it doesn't make sence that ost than with tier 1 has a mg sniper, mortar, at gun.

No, but there is a small problem against the brits all right.

It would just unbalance the game completely for the USF imo if Ost had access to a pak right off he bat.

And USF and sov scout cars to T0 to balance that against "I don't need another tier for 20 minutes" ost?

You do realize that moving pak40 to T1 will only make it arrive slightly sooner, so it can be a slightly faster counter. No Ost player will make the pak 40 his second or third unit, because then they will have no map control. Early vehicle play can overwhelm Ostheer, so having reasonable light vehicles counters other than the engine crit would be appreciated. Note, the pak40 is expensive and will remain so, even in T1.

Your argument holds no value, the Soviets can start out with an at gun or a scoutcar if they like, since their first two tiers can be selected at the start, unlike Ost needing to tech for it. As for USF, that faction needs a total redesign an unit revamp, it is beyond saving at the moment. Still m20 comes really early with a free bazooka, which can pretty much shut down a 222 and the m20 can most definitely shut down the kubel.

So I ask you to be:

A] Realistic
B] Thoughtful

The amount of NaCl on this thread is insane

You do realize that moving pak40 to T1 will only make it arrive slightly sooner, so it can be a slightly faster counter. No Ost player will make the pak 40 his second or third unit, because then they will have no map control. Early vehicle play can overwhelm Ostheer, so having reasonable light vehicles counters other than the engine crit would be appreciated. Note, the pak40 is expensive and will remain so, even in T1.

Except, you're wrong.
Its not just about early vehicles, its about a single super cheap tier with everything you need until you build T4. THAT is wrong and shouldn't happen. Sniper, HMG, mortar and AT gun? And most efficient basic infantry with free faust unlock on top of that?

That sounds like T2 unlock for other armies and they still get a third of that kind of package.
Why would I want to tech above T1 and not go straight for T4 if I had T1 AT gun?

That idea is completely stupid, unreasonable and utterly imbalanced.

Moreover, cpt molo have proven already multiple times that early vehicles aren't 100% bulletproof counter to ost and they can handle themselves perfectly well against them, so that makes your argument irrelevant by default.

Your argument holds no value, the Soviets can start out with an at gun or a scoutcar if they like, since their first two tiers can be selected at the start, unlike Ost needing to tech for it. As for USF, that faction needs a total redesign an unit revamp, it is beyond saving at the moment. Still m20 comes really early with a free bazooka, which can pretty much shut down a 222 and the m20 can most definitely shut down the kubel.

So I ask you to be:

A] Realistic
B] Thoughtful

Except you're wrong.
Soviet team weapons are LESS EFFECTIVE then ost team weapons, they don't have best sniper in game in the same tier, hiding behind. Soviet tiers are completely different with completely different loudouts, if you go for T1, the scout car is the only thing of value there and it already have short opportunity window and you want to make it even shorter? Get a grip.

M20 comes the same time as 222, 222 is much cheaper then M20 and hardcounters it. If USF is good enough to use zookas, good for him, 222 will still force it off instantly wherever it shows up, if there will be at least 1 gren squad nearby, you can't hop out of M20 or you'll lose it.

You're comparing apples to oranges, your argument pretty much boils down "If fish have scales and its useful for them, I should have them too, I don't care that I'm a bird and I have feathers already".

I am realistic and thoughtful.
I am able to see the factions by their timings, techings, combined arms possibilities, effectiveness of that, opportunity windows of short life span units.

You're the one who is blind to that, ignoring overpowering synergy that would create for ost, imbalancing completely their tiering and tech pace.

Op is wrong, Pak40 should go T0 to enable new meta: ostruppen/Mg42/Pak40 into T4.

I'm still trying to figure out how a Soviet player, with Conscripts, Maxims, mortars, and the ZiS in T2 is not overpowered, but an Ostheer player with access to Grenadiers, MG42s, mortars, and the PaK is clearly imbalanced.

I'm not advocating that the PaK get moved to T1 - I don't want to see the change made - but there are definitely some logical fallacies getting thrown about here.

Also -

222 is much cheaper then M20 and hardcounters it.

Yes, except it's also much worse against infantry. That's like saying a T-34 is better than a Katyusha because tanks kill mobile artillery.

That sounds like T2 unlock for other armies and they still get a third of that kind of package.
Why would I want to tech above T1 and not go straight for T4 if I had T1 AT gun?

That idea is completely stupid, unreasonable and utterly imbalanced.

You mean like Soviets can build T2, build maxims, mortars and at guns with cons and just wait until they make t4 and get either t34-85s or call in an IS2?

Katikof pls

I'm still trying to figure out how a Soviet player, with Conscripts, Maxims, mortars, and the ZiS in T2 is not overpowered, but an Ostheer player with access to Grenadiers, MG42s, mortars, and the PaK is clearly imbalanced.

I'm not advocating that the PaK get moved to T1 - I don't want to see the change made - but there are definitely some logical fallacies getting thrown about here.

Also -

Yes, except it's also much worse against infantry. That's like saying a T-34 is better than a Katyusha because tanks kill mobile artillery.

Exactly my point as well.

I am realistic and thoughtful.
I am able to see the factions by their timings, techings, combined arms possibilities, effectiveness of that, opportunity windows of short life span units.

You're the one who is blind to that, ignoring overpowering synergy that would create for ost, imbalancing completely their tiering and tech pace.

lel

Yes it is because the ostheer doesnt face m3/m5 ,m20's or bren carriers. its bit ridiculous that the ostheer is the only one that has to face LV's before it counters and no panzerfausts are not counters.

Did you play vCoH? Historically, the Pak has always been part of T2 and some people in vCoH even skipped T2 entirely, despite the possibility of annoying early Greyhounds. While the Panzerfaust isn't there to annihilate anything, it still fends of light vehicles pretty well and gives you time to get your PAK out.

Did you play vCoH? Historically, the Pak has always been part of T2 and some people in vCoH even skipped T2 entirely, despite the possibility of annoying early Greyhounds. While the Panzerfaust isn't there to annihilate anything, it still fends of light vehicles pretty well and gives you time to get your PAK out.

Nice cherry picking their. ost in coh1 didnt face bulletproof LV's in the first few minutes. ostheer in coh 2 do. and fausts are not an answer. because unlike you i can acutally micro my lv's it seems.

The aim/ready time needs to be 100% faster. OST is under constant abuse by the Lamborghini-powered t70 and to some extent the stuart.

You mean like Soviets can build T2, build maxims, mortars and at guns with cons and just wait until they make t4 and get either t34-85s or call in an IS2?

Katikof pls

mate have you ever played Soviets after the tech changes and the call in removal patch???

if you stay T2 and dont bring Light vehicles you will either have a stalemate which will favor Axis players duo to their tanks and supirior late game in general or lose to the supirior T1 werhmacht or quick panther/panzer 4/luch/ostwind from OKW

UNLIKE T1 where you are much safer to rush T2 AND T3 and go directly to T4 and rush panthers

go play soviets and go T2 and then wait for T4 and wait for those imaginary T34-85s and IS-2s in a 1vs1,2vs2 battlegrounds

You do realize that moving pak40 to T1 will only make it arrive slightly sooner, so it can be a slightly faster counter. No Ost player will make the pak 40 his second or third unit, because then they will have no map control. Early vehicle play can overwhelm Ostheer, so having reasonable light vehicles counters other than the engine crit would be appreciated. Note, the pak40 is expensive and will remain so, even in T1.

Your argument holds no value, the Soviets can start out with an at gun or a scoutcar if they like, since their first two tiers can be selected at the start, unlike Ost needing to tech for it. As for USF, that faction needs a total redesign an unit revamp, it is beyond saving at the moment. Still m20 comes really early with a free bazooka, which can pretty much shut down a 222 and the m20 can most definitely shut down the kubel.

So I ask you to be:

A] Realistic
B] Thoughtful

the pak40 is the main reason why anyone ever build that t2 building. moving the atg from t2 to t1 will allow axis to skip straight to t3.

the Halftrack, panzergrenadier, and the 222 have been varying degree of useless for a while, but the pak40 have always been the holy grail of atg.

I'm still trying to figure out how a Soviet player, with Conscripts, Maxims, mortars, and the ZiS in T2 is not overpowered, but an Ostheer player with access to Grenadiers, MG42s, mortars, and the PaK is clearly imbalanced.

I'm not advocating that the PaK get moved to T1 - I don't want to see the change made - but there are definitely some logical fallacies getting thrown about here.

Also -

Yes, except it's also much worse against infantry. That's like saying a T-34 is better than a Katyusha because tanks kill mobile artillery.

Maybe because except for the Cons, all what you quote is actually part of SovT2?

Actually moving Pak to T1 would make Ostheer the only faction who can skip a Tier without drawback.