It's really a difference of bursts. MG42 usually suppresses on first burst which makes it the most reliable crowd control. You can walk the fire to multiple sqauds in its arc to suppress multiple sqauds. The Vickers will usually suppress on the 3rd burst which is often "good enough" but not always. In the meantime it gets 2 full DPS bursts in making it pretty deadly. It's probably the perfect MG for taking on only one or two squads, but not more.
I'd say the Vickers is much better than "situational", but still 2nd place to the MG42 overall. The MG42 is just awesome because it's the closest thing to a "get out of jail free card" an MG can give you. It can really save your butt if you are fast enough to work with its really long setup time.
vickers vs hmg42
23 Feb 2016, 23:33 PM
#61
Posts: 154
23 Feb 2016, 23:43 PM
#62
Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1
Ok so went back to original point saying vickers not as good as MG42. Vickers is vulnerable to getting hit by volks creep because of its lower suppression ability. However, as it picks up vet I would rate it the best MG in the game.
This is really a situational difference and not a failure of design.
Try using the Vickers this way, keep it in buildings to help it spin quickly. Also prefer it on maps where the enemy is likely to get in buildings himself because the vickers does excellent damage to enemies within buildings. When you reach vet 1 build a trench covering your flank and looking over a VP or fuel point. Let it sit there and pick off stray units or even give you suppression when you attack with its extreme range. You can also try keeping it in green cover and picking off MG42 gunners, you will kill them fast enough to force a retreat. Then focus on the other infantry. The issue of units in trenches receiving too much damage from mortars should be addressed in the next patch.
This is really a situational difference and not a failure of design.
Try using the Vickers this way, keep it in buildings to help it spin quickly. Also prefer it on maps where the enemy is likely to get in buildings himself because the vickers does excellent damage to enemies within buildings. When you reach vet 1 build a trench covering your flank and looking over a VP or fuel point. Let it sit there and pick off stray units or even give you suppression when you attack with its extreme range. You can also try keeping it in green cover and picking off MG42 gunners, you will kill them fast enough to force a retreat. Then focus on the other infantry. The issue of units in trenches receiving too much damage from mortars should be addressed in the next patch.
23 Feb 2016, 23:49 PM
#63
Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17
Ok so went back to original point saying vickers not as good as MG42. Vickers is vulnerable to getting hit by volks creep because of its lower suppression ability. However, as it picks up vet I would rate it the best MG in the game.
This is really a situational difference and not a failure of design.
Try using the Vickers this way, keep it in buildings to help it spin quickly. Also prefer it on maps where the enemy is likely to get in buildings himself because the vickers does excellent damage to enemies within buildings. When you reach vet 1 build a trench covering your flank and looking over a VP or fuel point. Let it sit there and pick off stray units or even give you suppression when you attack with its extreme range. You can also try keeping it in green cover and picking off MG42 gunners, you will kill them fast enough to force a retreat. Then focus on the other infantry. The issue of units in trenches receiving too much damage from mortars should be addressed in the next patch.
That's true.
Beware, though: Using Vickers in a trench against Ostheer is suicide:
- Trench cover counts as garrison cover
- There is currently no damage reduction for trench cover vs grenades
- All models in the trench are very clumped up
Thus:
- A single riflegrenade will wipe the garrisoned squad inside the trench 100% of the time (provided the enemy knows where to aim)
You have a great idea that improves the QoL aspects of the game? Please, drop your idea here:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57860/some-qol-suggestions
Check out Cruzz's DPS calculator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
(Download the file, open it with your browser)
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57860/some-qol-suggestions
Check out Cruzz's DPS calculator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
(Download the file, open it with your browser)
24 Feb 2016, 00:09 AM
#64
Posts: 199
snip
Yup, learnt that the hard way. It is like the RE volley fire ability. I pay resources to have my squad get screwed over. At least it is still good for IS though.
The introduction of the flame nade essentially for free unlock is what is the grief with the Vickers with it's lack of suppression. If someone flanks to use a flame weapon or nade I am all for that but an MG that is in position that cannot prevent volks from walking through the fire isn't a real mg.
24 Feb 2016, 01:05 AM
#65
Posts: 680
It is the only problem with the Vickers, but it is a big problem.
A lone, garrisoned HMG should be able to pin before an unvetted ( especially a dirt cheap one) squad can crawl to within grenade range, though currently you need two Vickers with interlocking arcs to achieve this.
Killing a couple of models in the process is very little reward for not being able to hold ground with the right and only tool available in the best possible situation.
Some counterplay, even something as awful as the UCs suppressive fire, would fix this glaring hole in the Brits toolbox.
A lone, garrisoned HMG should be able to pin before an unvetted ( especially a dirt cheap one) squad can crawl to within grenade range, though currently you need two Vickers with interlocking arcs to achieve this.
Killing a couple of models in the process is very little reward for not being able to hold ground with the right and only tool available in the best possible situation.
Some counterplay, even something as awful as the UCs suppressive fire, would fix this glaring hole in the Brits toolbox.
24 Feb 2016, 02:06 AM
#66
Posts: 5279
I feel like a hammer+Anvil Esq upgrade for the Vickers would be a neat fix (in my head atm with 0 testing at all) one way improves its supression the other maybe gives it an extra man? Or maybe a smidge more pen (to help the Brits vs the new 222?) I knows its more Anvil Anvil... But eh?
#stalinwept
24 Feb 2016, 04:10 AM
#67
Posts: 88
If people manage to play the mg34 somewhat effectively how can people cry about the vickers then? If anything it does too much damage. It will however not hold a flank by itself (it shouldnt anyway). But I guess thats what an allied unit has to do these days to be considered decent.
24 Feb 2016, 06:29 AM
#68
Posts: 1930
Ok so went back to original point saying vickers not as good as MG42. Vickers is vulnerable to getting hit by volks creep because of its lower suppression ability. However, as it picks up vet I would rate it the best MG in the game.
This is really a situational difference and not a failure of design.
if it really is matter of situational difference, then the vicker shouldn't be more expensive.
and I fail to see how the the vet1 bonus on the vicker, which require a building or trench (50mp) to work, is better than the mg42's incendiary rounds.
24 Feb 2016, 06:32 AM
#69
Posts: 1063
if it really is matter of situational difference, then the vicker shouldn't be more expensive.
This, Vickers is only good if you can find a good spot and have somebody spot for it and can still be run over by volk blob, while 2 MG-42 overlap each other and Allied player better go somewhere else or use indirect, there's no way the Vickers worth 280mp for that, I would prefer a small range upgrade or increase suppresion with vet, not this nonsense required garrison.
24 Feb 2016, 09:53 AM
#70
Posts: 284
This, Vickers is only good if you can find a good spot and have somebody spot for it and can still be run over by volk blob, while 2 MG-42 overlap each other and Allied player better go somewhere else or use indirect, there's no way the Vickers worth 280mp for that, I would prefer a small range upgrade or increase suppresion with vet, not this nonsense required garrison.
Thats the point of the HMG.. find a good spot to deffend an area.
Vicker is perfectly fine for UKF. They have good range, nice bonuses with vet and when they are garrisoned. Their damage is better, and axis infantry not gonna pump smoke under their nose.
Vicker knows anything you need against axis in early game. No need to change at all..
24 Feb 2016, 09:56 AM
#71
Posts: 1653
Viker is fine, probably one of the best mg's in the game, huge range. The lower supression values are the compensation of the huge range.
24 Feb 2016, 09:57 AM
#72
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Viker is fine, probably one of the best mg's in the game, huge range. The lower supression values are the compensation of the huge range.
Every single HMG in game has the same "huge range" as vickers, unless you SPECIFICALLY talk about vet1 while garrisoned, in which case, you should mention it.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
24 Feb 2016, 09:58 AM
#73
Posts: 1653
Every single HMG in game has the same "huge range" as vickers, unless you SPECIFICALLY talk about vet1 while garrisoned, in which case, you should mention it.
With vet 1 ok, forgot to mention it
24 Feb 2016, 10:08 AM
#74
Posts: 284
I dont think there is any performance issue with the OST and the UKF mg. The only thing should be (and probably will be) looked at is using multiple intel bulletin with OKW.
I only have two of it at the moment, but its possible to have 3 intel bulletin, each of them decrease suppression with 10% for volksgrenediers. Im not sure, so feel free to correct me, but i think these even stack, so... 30% decreased suppression is pretty nasty.
I only have two of it at the moment, but its possible to have 3 intel bulletin, each of them decrease suppression with 10% for volksgrenediers. Im not sure, so feel free to correct me, but i think these even stack, so... 30% decreased suppression is pretty nasty.
24 Feb 2016, 15:31 PM
#75
Posts: 609
Rice, weren't you one of the people complaining about Cons being able to Oorah up to MG42s face first and heave a molly? Yet you think the vickers is "fine" when volks do the exact same thing?
24 Feb 2016, 15:48 PM
#76
Posts: 1063
Thats the point of the HMG.. find a good spot to deffend an area.
Vicker is perfectly fine for UKF. They have good range, nice bonuses with vet and when they are garrisoned. Their damage is better, and axis infantry not gonna pump smoke under their nose.
Vicker knows anything you need against axis in early game. No need to change at all..
But that's the problem with Vickers: it does not have the same versatility as MG42 because unless you find a good building, it is a more expensive and less potent MG42, I want the range increase to be lower but it always work, none of the nonsense building requirement here.
24 Feb 2016, 16:03 PM
#77
Posts: 208
At vet 0, in green cover or in a building (so taking the suppression out of the equation) a Vickers will beat an MG42 1v1 every time.
There must be something else to consider here... Burst fire making it do more damage over time or what?
There must be something else to consider here... Burst fire making it do more damage over time or what?
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us"
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24 Feb 2016, 16:35 PM
#78
Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17
Actually, I'm reconsidering my position on Vickers:
- Its price is fine. This is considering that UKF gets access to cheap mainline infantry (I mean Sappers; Tommies are just urgh)
- The Vet1 ability is great (no question about it)
- Vickers just needs to scale a bit better at higher Vet-levels
And by scaling, I am thinking of ONE of those two buffs:
1. (maybe at Vet3) SLIGHTLY buff its unpack time, but ONLY when the MG is leaving garrisons/trenches. That way Vickers can suppress Grenadiers/Volks and have time to unpack/reposition ONCE without having to eat a grenade in the face 100% of the time.
2. Buff its passive penetration bonus, so that it actually poses a threat to light vehicles.
I would opt for option #1. That way Vickers can be better used in conjunction with trenches (which don't allow the MG to cover a 360 degree area anyway).
The idea is to repurpose highly-vetted Vickers to a "suppress-and-reposition-once weapon" as opposed to a "suppress-and-retreat-or-get-wiped weapon" which is its current niche in the late-game. This will also give Vickers a distinct flavour from MG42/Maxpin which are "camp-and-pin weapons".
- Its price is fine. This is considering that UKF gets access to cheap mainline infantry (I mean Sappers; Tommies are just urgh)
- The Vet1 ability is great (no question about it)
- Vickers just needs to scale a bit better at higher Vet-levels
And by scaling, I am thinking of ONE of those two buffs:
1. (maybe at Vet3) SLIGHTLY buff its unpack time, but ONLY when the MG is leaving garrisons/trenches. That way Vickers can suppress Grenadiers/Volks and have time to unpack/reposition ONCE without having to eat a grenade in the face 100% of the time.
2. Buff its passive penetration bonus, so that it actually poses a threat to light vehicles.
I would opt for option #1. That way Vickers can be better used in conjunction with trenches (which don't allow the MG to cover a 360 degree area anyway).
The idea is to repurpose highly-vetted Vickers to a "suppress-and-reposition-once weapon" as opposed to a "suppress-and-retreat-or-get-wiped weapon" which is its current niche in the late-game. This will also give Vickers a distinct flavour from MG42/Maxpin which are "camp-and-pin weapons".
You have a great idea that improves the QoL aspects of the game? Please, drop your idea here:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57860/some-qol-suggestions
Check out Cruzz's DPS calculator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
(Download the file, open it with your browser)
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57860/some-qol-suggestions
Check out Cruzz's DPS calculator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
(Download the file, open it with your browser)
24 Feb 2016, 18:27 PM
#79
Posts: 680
Or as a radical alternative...
Reduce the suppression.
Might sound bonkers but as you need two to pin having the Vickers in the grey area of 'almost stops but still gets a grenade in the face' is no use. Particularly nasty for new players though with no counterplay possible there isn't much you can do about it.
Better to reduce it's suppression and reduce the price maybe.
Or better reduce the suppression and give the UC a realistic suppressing role.
"At vet 0, in green cover or in a building (so taking the suppression out of the equation) a Vickers will beat an MG42 1v1 every time."
As far as I can tell the MG42 wins, however the Vickers squad with nerfed Lee Enfields beats the MG42 squad with MP40s by inches.
Reduce the suppression.
Might sound bonkers but as you need two to pin having the Vickers in the grey area of 'almost stops but still gets a grenade in the face' is no use. Particularly nasty for new players though with no counterplay possible there isn't much you can do about it.
Better to reduce it's suppression and reduce the price maybe.
Or better reduce the suppression and give the UC a realistic suppressing role.
"At vet 0, in green cover or in a building (so taking the suppression out of the equation) a Vickers will beat an MG42 1v1 every time."
As far as I can tell the MG42 wins, however the Vickers squad with nerfed Lee Enfields beats the MG42 squad with MP40s by inches.
24 Feb 2016, 19:05 PM
#80
Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17
According to Cruzz:
That explains a lot of things.
Considering that the Vickers costs that much more though, I would like to see its utility scale somewhat as it Vets beyond veterancy level 1.
Vickers has higher DPS between 0 and 41 range, the shorter the range the bigger the difference. Vickers also has better crew guns for ranges 16 to 35. It should win in a garrison at all but the highest range, but there are basically no situations in the game where two MGs will be firing at each other from garrisons at 42+ range so effectively it'll always win.
That explains a lot of things.
Considering that the Vickers costs that much more though, I would like to see its utility scale somewhat as it Vets beyond veterancy level 1.
You have a great idea that improves the QoL aspects of the game? Please, drop your idea here:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57860/some-qol-suggestions
Check out Cruzz's DPS calculator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
(Download the file, open it with your browser)
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57860/some-qol-suggestions
Check out Cruzz's DPS calculator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
(Download the file, open it with your browser)
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