Faction comparison by Relic

Sounds interesting. You should make a guide or at least BO.

You should check out lemon's 2v2 guide. It's pretty similar to what we do, we just use 2x USF.

I gotcha. I was thought your strategy was literally a wall of like 5 HMGs backed by Jacksons.

If relic is not changing USF, they will be dead after sept the 3rd.
In 2vs2 I haven't seen the USF for a while. It's every time double soviets.

Based Lee has mentioned USF changes at least twice since he's been on official streams hinting more specifically at veterancy overhaul affecting them.

Based Lee has mentioned USF changes at least twice since he's been on official streams hinting more specifically at veterancy overhaul affecting them.

USF is gonna need a serious overhaul considering how poor performance they've been doing post July 21 patch...

usf is strong with combined arms tactics, but no one actually uses combined arms cause players usually only tech 2 officers instead of 3.

Isn't USF (and OKW for that matter) only supposed to tech two out of three?

Accuracy of the descriptions aside I think this whole early/mid/late game faction view is fucked.

Basically saying one faction is stronger early game versus another stronger late game makes winning revolve around the clock.

All factions should be equally as strong throughout the game, but in relation to aggressive or defensive power.

USF shouldn't be stronger early game, just the stronger attacker. Ost would be matched to be equally strong but in a defensive way. Offence and defence balanced and changing hands throughout the game by giving each faction access to the right units and counters throughout the game. Not leaving one faction dry until it hits a time limit and gets super defence and offence, against another who gets good units for a while but then finds everything obsolete.

VCoh was balanced like that - when a faction had aggressive options the other side actually had adequate counters.

+1; someone give this man a cookie

Isn't USF (and OKW for that matter) only supposed to tech two out of three?

No. I tech all 3 for usf and will tech a 3rd as okw depending on situation

I do see more Ostheer and Soviets in team games, but I still see 1-2 OKW and USF players as well, they are just never the majority. I don't the USF is a dead faction right now, I do think it could use some help, but I don't think it is as bad as some people would claim. OKW is pretty good in 2v2, but starts to fall off in 3v3 and 4v4, where large arty wars and fast early game really punishes them. You can really only get 2-3 Shreks early with Volks and they will get shredded by 2-3 T70s/M5s, and good luck holding back that Maxim spam... King Tiger spam really isn't viable, due to rushing 1-2 of them really puts your team in a bind early and mid game as you sit on your resources adn try to stem the tide with just Volks.

I am not sure how UKF will impact the meta, but I do think Relic will give both USF and OKW something to give them some better options throughout the game.

But that's insane! USF fuel tech costs are mis-aligned with axis then. If they're meant to have all 3 tiers then they definitely need adjustment to fuel tech costs.

But that's insane! USF fuel tech costs are mis-aligned with axis then. If they're meant to have all 3 tiers then they definitely need adjustment to fuel tech costs.

USF aren't really meant to have all of them unlocked.
They are supposed to work like soviets, where you pick one early game tier and then go for end game.

OKW teching on the other hand and KT mean you're supposed to eventually have all 3 trucks.

USF is gonna need a serious overhaul considering how poor performance they've been doing post July 21 patch...

You mean how fucking boring playing rifle spam every game is?

USF aren't really meant to have all of them unlocked.
They are supposed to work like soviets, where you pick one early game tier and then go for end game.

OKW teching on the other hand and KT mean you're supposed to eventually have all 3 trucks.

Hence my post above. Gets pretty damn stale because of how stupidly designed the faction (or relic) is.

I do see more Ostheer and Soviets in team games, but I still see 1-2 OKW and USF players as well, they are just never the majority. I don't the USF is a dead faction right now, I do think it could use some help, but I don't think it is as bad as some people would claim. OKW is pretty good in 2v2, but starts to fall off in 3v3 and 4v4, where large arty wars and fast early game really punishes them. You can really only get 2-3 Shreks early with Volks and they will get shredded by 2-3 T70s/M5s, and good luck holding back that Maxim spam... King Tiger spam really isn't viable, due to rushing 1-2 of them really puts your team in a bind early and mid game as you sit on your resources adn try to stem the tide with just Volks.

I am not sure how UKF will impact the meta, but I do think Relic will give both USF and OKW something to give them some better options throughout the game.

OKW has the highest win rate in 3s and 4s . . .

OKW has the highest win rate in 3s and 4s . . .

The win rate in 3's and 4's from http://coh2chart.com/ has no bearing on reality and it doesn't include AT's. This past tournament were there have been multiple competitive 3's and 4's USF has been decently popular in the 3's and 4's, OKW on the other hand as not (normally you will see 1 in 3v3 and 4v4).

This is mostly due to OKW being very easy to punish with things like Artillery which is very spammable in the 3's and 4's, also OKW doesn't really bring anything to the table other than support.

The win rate in 3's and 4's from http://coh2chart.com/ has no bearing on reality and it doesn't include AT's. This past tournament were there have been multiple competitive 3's and 4's USF has been decently popular in the 3's and 4's, OKW on the other hand as not (normally you will see 1 in 3v3 and 4v4).

This is mostly due to OKW being very easy to punish with things like Artillery which is very spammable in the 3's and 4's, also OKW doesn't really bring anything to the table other than support.

It definitely has a bearing on reality, it is reality. What I think you are saying is it should not have a bearing on balance, which I believe is also incorrect.

A good portion of players play 3v3 and 4v4 (~50%) and saying well you should just expect to lose as Allies when you queue up there is not a good strategy for brand retention. Relic should and will be changing things to provide help to these players and make the Allies a more popular option.

I also think you undersell OKW in larger games. Yes when there are 4 of them they suffer, but mixed in with Wehr and you have an almost unstoppable force right away. Kubel synergizes so well with Grens. Volks provide excellent mobile AT in conjunction with more static T2 Wehr play. Artillery means nothing with at least one CAS player, build as much as you like for 50 fuel they can blow all the artillery you can build sky high with a click.

That wont change, either. Its Relic's perception of WW2, after all.

I'll freely admit that Relic has done some boneheaded things from time-to-time but this seems unfair. Believing that Germany was at the advantage in the end game of the war would be *really* dumb. I think it's something that just falls out of a much more defensible design choice-the few vs the many thing.

Still, clock-based balance sucks.

It definitely has a bearing on reality, it is reality. What I think you are saying is it should not have a bearing on balance, which I believe is also incorrect.

AT's will always beat randoms, hard to balance around that. You can make allied team work more intuitive and easier to pull off like it is for Axis, but there is still the issue of 3v3 and 4v4 map's being unrelenting shit which is the biggest killer right now.

A good portion of players play 3v3 and 4v4 (~50%) and saying well you should just expect to lose as Allies when you queue up there is not a good strategy for brand retention. Relic should and will be changing things to provide help to these players and make the Allies a more popular option.

Brits should help things, as it will increase the allied player pool (one of the big reasons allies have a poorer time as well is a very tiny player pool). But again the primary culprit here is maps were it's really easy to turtle on.

I also think you undersell OKW in larger games. Yes when there are 4 of them they suffer, but mixed in with Wehr and you have an almost unstoppable force right away. Kubel synergizes so well with Grens. Volks provide excellent mobile AT in conjunction with more static T2 Wehr play. Artillery means nothing with at least one CAS player, build as much as you like for 50 fuel they can blow all the artillery you can build sky high with a click.

What is your explanation for OKW being unpopular in the LoH tournament then? Because I am pretty sure it's due to a couple of factors:

-Just 1 OKW player can provide you with all the counters you need

-OKW is punished a lot harder by Katyusha's and priests which can't be reliably countered with CAS

-Cannot contribute to the construction of fuel and munitions caches

-Jadgtiger is much harder to use than the Elefant

-The large increase in indirect fire makes keeping vetted squads alive difficult and loss of vetted squads is a game killer for OKW

-Easier to be outnumbered, a JPIV is a amazing TD but when outnumbered 4-5 to 1 is difficult to use. Ostheer can rely on cheaper easier to spam tanks.

-Enemy AT is much more plentiful in general, which makes countering the much smaller in number OKW vehicles fairly trivial. Meaning a greater amount of micro has to be invested in keeping your tanks/light vehicles around.

AT's will always beat randoms, hard to balance around that. You can make allied team work more intuitive and easier to pull off like it is for Axis, but there is still the issue of 3v3 and 4v4 map's being unrelenting shit which is the biggest killer right now.



Brits should help things, as it will increase the allied player pool (one of the big reasons allies have a poorer time as well is a very tiny player pool). But again the primary culprit here is maps were it's really easy to turtle on.



What is your explanation for OKW being unpopular in the LoH tournament then? Because I am pretty sure it's due to a couple of factors:

-Just 1 OKW player can provide you with all the counters you need

-OKW is punished a lot harder by Katyusha's and priests which can't be reliably countered with CAS

-Cannot contribute to the construction of fuel and munitions caches

-Jadgtiger is much harder to use than the Elefant

-The large increase in indirect fire makes keeping vetted squads alive difficult and loss of vetted squads is a game killer for OKW

-Easier to be outnumbered, a JPIV is a amazing TD but when outnumbered 4-5 to 1 is difficult to use. Ostheer can rely on cheaper easier to spam tanks.

-Enemy AT is much more plentiful in general, which makes countering the much smaller in number OKW vehicles fairly trivial. Meaning a greater amount of micro has to be invested in keeping your tanks/light vehicles around.

This has pretty much been me and my friends experience recently. OKW just feels like it is missing something and whenever I play them I feel the punishment of having such specialized units.

USF aren't really meant to have all of them unlocked.
They are supposed to work like soviets, where you pick one early game tier and then go for end game.

OKW teching on the other hand and KT mean you're supposed to eventually have all 3 trucks.

Now I'm confused. I used to think like you. But lemon here says they're meant to tech all 3 officers. Thing is, with OKW its pretty explicit; afterall its in one of the loading screen tips. Not so sure about USF now

I'll freely admit that Relic has done some boneheaded things from time-to-time but this seems unfair. Believing that Germany was at the advantage in the end game of the war would be *really* dumb. I think it's something that just falls out of a much more defensible design choice-the few vs the many thing.

Agreed, half of Axis advantages in game were true to life. The rest are mostly due to Allies mysteriously missing their advantages (massed PPSh, T-34/85 penetration, USF TD's self-spotting) or Axis being over-inflated (OKW P4, Tiger I, Panther rear armour).