ML-20 and barraging the enemy base need a nerf.

2013 all over again

You've had your base obliterated by a Stuka while it sat in its HQ sector? Impressive.

No I killed USF entire infantry army when he retreated to his base . My point was that you can hit the base sector with stuka as well, if ml20 changes to not being able to hit base sector, then it will need to change for stuka etc as well.

what? comparing stuka to ml20? lol

No, just ability to shoot in the base sector. You can kill entire armies with stuka in the base. Done so myself many times, especially blobbing USF.

The fact that ml20 can destroy hq in two barrages is just to lame. Dunno why Relic didn't figure it out when they thought of buffing it.

For the same reason grens have LMG and cons have nothing.
Just get any doctrine with recon and stuka and laugh at all attempts at howis, like all other axis players.

Wouldn't you say though that is a bad dynamic? I don't think one axis player using CAS should automatically negate all allied artillery emplacements in two clicks with no possibility for counter play. Nothing wrong with certain doctrines countering certain other doctrines, but it shouldn't be that extreme, and usually it isn't. For instance, Elefant doctrines counter other heavy tank doctrines, but it's not like going Jaeger armor means automatic death for IS2s.

IMO emplacements should be able to survive one stuka dive bomb with a sliver of health but should somehow be a little more vulnerable to stock means of dealing with them. Not sure how you'd achieve that. exclude theme from base sector maybe? I guess that might not work either because you could put them one inch outside of it.

I realize though from the history of patch notes that Relic is very intent on Stuka dive bomb being a one shot kill for arty so I guess that's not gonna change.

You people act like howitzers barraging bases and oe shotting squads is all great and we should have to deal with it

The ML20 is too good right now. But it's walking a fine line between OP and useless. If it wasn't able to cheese OKW bases to death like it can now it will be sent back into the "never build again" pile. Relic needs to think long and hard about howitzers and their place in the game.

So if I select a doctrine too early (he didn't present any clear indications) that doesn't have the recon + Stuka I'm screwed? I wouldn't exactly call that a fun meta.

This exemplifies the core issues of the commander system implemented in coh2. The game can't afford to have a diverse meta because if there are too many available strategies they will be limited by the number of commanders available per game.

Base bombing of any kind shouldn't have a place in this game. It doesn't matter if howitzer or offmap. Such cheesy tactics are for people which can't win on the field itself. As I was playing with USF in a 3vs3 I encountered an Ost player which was heavenly beaten on the field mainly by my Vet2-3 Falls with M1919A6 and Shermans with smoke usage. The match changed as I hit the retreat button for three Vet3 Falls. He sent a Recon plane and then a diving stukka to the point the Falls were retreating to. I couldn't save them, three squads for over 1000 MP and 360 Mun with Vet3 blown to pieces. He did this again in this match. Ridiculous.

So I would change it like this to prevent base bombing and make howitzer performance less dependent on opponent comamnder choices:

- no offmap abilities can be called on base sector (like USF 240mm artillery strike, which can't be used there)
- base structures get reduced damage from onmap artillery
- structures other than base structures can't be build in base sector, so that howitzers can't abuse the no offmap abilitiy rule for base sectors and can't use base defences for their protection so that they are more prone to standard troop assaults and artillery counterattacks
- howitzers barely survive any single offmap attack, so they are not completely useless versus some commamders
- add an incoming sound for artillery/rocket shells at target location so that you have a chance to prevent full squad kills if you are aware -> this is especially true for walking Stukka which can easily wipe out full squads.

The other unit that is really strong at producing full squad wipes is the walking stukka, I always play it myself when playing OKW and I hate to play versus it. Especially in larger team games there has something to be done. Once you know how to use the stukka you will easily kill full squads,I myself managed to kill 28 soldiers with one salvo (4 squads wipes + some more casualties)

- add some more airtime to rockets of walking stukka
- add the incoming noise I already mentioned above (this will help in the big games, you just can't retreat with any squad on the map when you hear the stukkas firing sound)
- spread out the impact points of rocktes a little bit to help preventing full squad wipes

Imo this would help a lot to prevent base bombing and hinder full squad wipes.

Its all about doctrinal choice and doctrinal units. Its not like SU arty is OP. Wehrmacht arty is a hell as well this patch. It feels like its shooting constantly, TEN shots at vet 3, its a constant barrage.

You can easily counter ML-20 with Close Air Support commander or leFH 18. I like the change because arty was useless before the patch. Longer barrage is good idea because you can deny points.

Reduce range on all howitzers from 250 to 200?

The arty needs to be far more accurate and fire fewer shells, or it must retain the amount of shells to make sure it actually hits the target. Reducing its range is fine, but then arty should not be killable until the enter crew is dead so offmaps don't one shot these things. It is extremely stupid how off map just straight up kills artillery pieces, especially from CAS.

Reducing the range too much would be a bad idee...if this applies just make them(LefH and ML) movable or something,with very slow speed,and slow packing/unpacking time...like this you can evade bombing but have to leave your base to fire,leaving them more vulnerable to ground units

You can easily counter ML-20 with Close Air Support commander or leFH 18. I like the change because arty was useless before the patch. Longer barrage is good idea because you can deny points.

The leFH is a soft counter at best. Vet 1 counter-barrage can work but its unlikely to actually destroy the ML-20 outright.

I don't like using CAS. I've started using Jaeger Armour. I'm having success with it when any ML-20s are fielded, thanks to Katitof's suggestion. Ele is good because it shuts down heavies and TD's and ML-20s are toast thanks to the Stuka bomb.

The thing that confuses me with the changes they made to the ML-20 is the shot count...

Lefe artillery - 6 shots to 10 shots (ok fair enough)
ML20 - 4 shots - 8 shots +2 with vet 1 (whats the point of adding the +2?)

Its better than the Lefe, while not as accurate its damage is just abit nuts at the moment, can be devastating in 1v1s.

Lets not forget commanders should be used to AUGMENT your force, not BE your force. I feel the ML20 kind of oversteps that mark when it starts blowing up all the OKW trucks.


Suggested fix: Lower its damage vs buildings (including OKW trucks).
OR move to 10cp.

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Honestly what id like to do is make BOTH the ML20 and the Lefe Artillery cost 450mp and 60 fuel. with a slight health buff so the GUN (not the crew) can survive 1 direct Stukka/IL2 bombing strike by like 5% hp.

I think they added +2 shots at vet 1 simply because the Precision Strike was a idiotic ability...

What is OKW counter to ML20 parked in base, beside suicide luchs rush and 1lucky strike with stuka zu fus (that 1/10 will decrew instead of destroying gun)? I used to counter b4 with Scavenge Doctrine Arty before it got nerfed, but B4 got nerfed aswell so problem kind of sort it out. Last night I was so unlucky that ML20 destroyed my Med HQ ... on moscov ... in my base ... in 1 volley

What is OKW counter to ML20 parked in base, beside suicide luchs rush and 1lucky strike with stuka zu fus (that 1/10 will decrew instead of destroying gun)? I used to counter b4 with Scavenge Doctrine Arty before it got nerfed, but B4 got nerfed aswell so problem kind of sort it out. Last night I was so unlucky that ML20 destroyed my Med HQ ... on moscov ... in my base ... in 1 volley

Non unfortunatly. Best thing to do is to put your FHQ's and other trucks behind shot blockers all the time, which a ML-20 can't penetrate.

For the same reason grens have LMG and cons have nothing.
Just get any doctrine with recon and stuka and laugh at all attempts at howis, like all other axis players.

Really bad argument/proposal.

Really bad argument/proposal.

Then how about this:

ML-20 cooldown starts when the barrage ends.
leFH coldown starts when the first shell is shot.

Similar doesn't equal same and its not always imbalance when allies happen to have better counterpart.
Protip: Not everything ubermenshen have built was superior.