ML-20 and barraging the enemy base need a nerf.

Don't go lying about your blobbing m8
http://www.twitch.tv/lenny12346/v/4260599

Was nice.

CoH2 is all about commanders. You counter X by choosing Y. Nothing new here. So if enemy goes for ML20 I should react on this by choosing something with off map.

Same way soviets must react on OST choices. Elephant? Let's try ISU + mark target. etc etc...

Still, in 1v1 it's not issue since both sides can rape each other (Luvnest vs Ihitto). LeFH was raping Luvnest all the time, until he made suicide mission with T70. So what? Give Sov good doctrine with recon and dive bomb? I don't see threads like this.

In team games, well... You must fill up gaps so going for double OKW and than whine about ML20 is not good solution.

Don't go lying about your blobbing m8
http://www.twitch.tv/lenny12346/v/4260599

woah a game from several months ago before I got gud, although still amazingly funny to see people link it like it still means anything lol.

Still, in 1v1 it's not issue since both sides can rape each other (Luvnest vs Ihitto). LeFH was raping Luvnest all the time, until he made suicide mission with T70. So what? Give Sov good doctrine with recon and dive bomb? I don't see threads like this.

Soviets have a Stuka dive bomb equivalent, it's called IL-2 bombing run (it even comes in ML-20 and ISU commanders like the Stuka bomb does!)

In team games, well... You must fill up gaps so going for double OKW and than whine about ML20 is not good solution.

And what If I'm doing random games? Do I deserve to lose just because I got matched with another OKW player?

Ahh yes, using my playercard as a weapon. I will note I have, shall I say, quite a bit of experience with Germans. You seem to think that 2v2 is so disconnected from 3v3 and 4v4 and to some degree my 2v2 experience, that I could not possibly understand your arguments.

I'm not using it as a weapon I'm saying you lack perspective on 2v2 because ML-20's are the most problematic in 2v2. Almost all 2v2 maps allow you to shoot the enemys based (or extremely close to it) from your won base.

What you were asking for is actually a one hit kill button. No faction should have regular access to these, so yes I don't want to see OKW get those

So are you in support from removing them from Soviets, USF, and Ostheer?

As a reminder OKW has access to the best stock inf in the game,

OKW has the most expensive stock infantry in the game. But Volks literally only exist to tote shreks around, they can't even beat cons 1 on 1 till they hit vet 3.

the best call in inf

yeah no Jaegar and Fuss are good but Fallsch are awful and none of the three approach how excellent guards and shocks are.

the best tanks,

The most expensive tanks. OKW tanks are effective because you can't get a lot of them.

the best on map mobile arty

The most expensive on map mobile artillery. I would gladly fire the Stuka into the sun in return for a Katyusha equivalent that was affordable. The Stuka also has probably some of the most insanely pointless vet bonus's in the game (4 and 5 specifically)

the best base construction

Uh, yes OKW trucks can be placed forward this is how the entire faction was designed.

and the hardest and most diverse counters,

Diverse? You mean spamming Racktens for AT and praying your JPIV get's here sooner? I can feel really the diversity.

As a reminder about the Stuka, since you did not read my post

yes I did.

if your opponent invests heavily in Howitzers, then he is not going to supply his army with mobile tanks and assault guns,

Howitzers don't cost fuel.

he has to pick some things to get them

You mean doctrines? Because right now the Soviet stock army is better than it's ever been before. All the ML-20 commanders (except for irregulars) are excellent.

In contrast, your ally can then get mobile tank units to cover your stuka's

Stuka's!? Were the hell am I going to get 200+ fuel for just Stuka's? And if I have an OKW ally what "tanks" while he be getting? Normally in a average length game OKW can make 2-3 vehicles tops.

or you can invest in some of the most cost effective AT in the game

How am I going to get OKW's effective AT if I have no fuel for JPIV's because I have a shitload of Stuka's?

including rakentens which can cloak natively now.

Racktens are good but you can't rely on them for ALL of your AT. You need something with an engine on it eventually. Not to mention the enemies artillery can smash your defensive AT lines.

Also the Stuka is extremely accurate, and with proper support it can hit base sectors.

Yes it is accurate! It is also very easy to dodge due to said accuracy. Stuka's are made to counter buildings and support weapon play not bombard base sectors. Also proper support? Yeah no unless it's a really tiny map I won't be hitting his base with Stuka's which are vulnerable to fast medium rushes.

Use the map, smoke, and your teammate to get in range of the bigger guns.

Will this map and smoke negate mines and enemy AT? Because rushing an enemies base (if the enemy isn't brain dead) is essentially impossible. And smoke is what you use when your making an obvious assault you don't want to use it for stealth.

Also you get and IR HT to see through FoW now for 0 fuel.

Yes?

OKW is purposely weak to artillery, it has to try to draw the Allies into combat where it can win unit for unit.

So uncounterable howitzers are fine because it's supposed to be OKW's "weakness"? I fail to see how I can draw them into combat when they can just bombard my trucks or base from all the way across the map and wait till half my shit is dead or my defensive lines in shambles before pushing.

Indeed the LefH and the ML20 are very similar to some degree, but the ML20 packs far more punch. However, both types of arty are given more shells to help compensate because no shell is likely to hit a target.

The ML-20 costs the same, has the same scatter, but slightly less shells while doing almost twice the damage. And yes the shells are likely to hit the target why the hell do you think people USE howitzers? Even a close shot from an ML-20 can instigib a squad. You can also reduce the scatter by firing closer or having sight of the target.

If we reduce shell number the scatter needs to come down on both.

How about we just give people counters so Howitzers have counterplay like every other unit in the game

Not really sure how you thought I was just saying the ML20 needs this.

Because you specifically mentioned the ML-20 needing better scatter if it has a smaller AoE not less shells

" AOE is to make up for its insanely high scatter. If AOE goes down scatter has to as well."

It's scatter isn't "insanely high" compared to anything. It has normal artillery scatter.

Another option is to prevent Stuka dive bomb from clearing out the ML20 and then nerf it.

How about keeping howitzers useful and the counters useful? Tons of people use howitzer doctrines even though people have counters because that's just how the game works. I still use tanks if the enemy has AT guns, I still use infantry if the enemy has MG's. Making it so howitzers have to be built outside of base sectors would also be helpful.

Currently it has to do serious damage because at 12 cps the German player can just take it completely off the field.

It comes 4 CP's before the bombing strike does (assuming the german player will instantly have enough munitions). People still make Pak43's even though IL-2 bombing runs exist and time on target exists. Killing 1 HQ or wiping 2-3 squads will have made the Howitzer pay for itself especially since OKW depends extremely heavily on preserving high vet squads.

As for the "sneaking" one Luchs can clear off a gun quite quickly and getting in close brings other advantages than off maps

It takes the Luchs several minutes to actually kill the gun, and the enemy can just mine the road to their base (like seriously it only costs 30 muni to do).

I don't mean for you to use off maps to win the game you have tools to deal with things other than call in a bombing strike from the sun.

Except right now OKW has no howitzer counter. If OKW has a SPH of it's own or just an LefH then the OKW player could at least shoot back.

A luchs close to his base gives valuable intel and lets you decide when to make a critical push.

So the player is just going to let me sit this luchs outside his base free of harassment?

Once the guns is down he has two options, invest in AT to help hold the line immediately and forsake getting a gun.

AT? against a Luchs? Uh he can just call over one of his guard squads or just yknow have mined the road into is base like any sane person does. Also again it takes the Luchs a fairly significant amount of time to actually kill the gun so he can't recrew it.

Or reinvest in a big gun and go light on the line again, making him vulnerable to pushes

Or just recrew the howitzer and enjoy the fact it costs less popcap now.

Killing the artillery is nice, but the objective of a game is vp's so getting those ticked down with artillery firing is fine.

If only the ghosts of my soldiers evaporated by artillery fire could capture victory points.

I am not calling you a fan boy, but your posts have almost always been about buffing OKW units.

I talk about pretty much every faction in the game regularly. Why are you even accusing me of this?

Your experience with other factions is limited,

What...? I have a ton of games as Ostheer and fairly significant amount of Allied AT play.

and your posts often suggest you don't understand how basic Allied units function in a well balanced army.

Are you going to share any examples with the class?

You are often at the losing end of discussions because you take balance personally and don't reflect on the satisfaction of having a game balanced so all factions are fun to play throughout the game.

??? Dude idk what your smoking but if you think I'm still "le ebin okw fanboeh" then several months ago called and they want their old rhetoric back.

EDIT: If you want to see any of my games from recently feel free to look them up in the replay section. I don't blob especially compared to how many pro's do.

Show Spoiler

That was not the point. Point was that Soviets have worse access to recon+IL than OST to recon+stuka. 1 doctrine with ML-20 and guards vs mighty CAS and Jaeger Armor + Luftwaffe. See diference? Yet no one is calling for nerf of LeFH beseides it can rape base in the same way.
If I'm doing random USF and got match with another USF and then, during the game, we badly need ISU to counter something because if we won't we gonna lose, what then? Nerf everything cause I did not have access to ISU?

Random is random and you agree for double OKW when you are doing since. But even tho, you can simply cloak Luchs or JPIV, sneak and kill it with off map which comes with Jaegers or use Spec Ops flares from teammate so no need to sneak.

That was not the point. Point was that Soviets have worse access to recon+IL than OST to recon+stuka. 1 doctrine with ML-20 and guards vs mighty CAS and Jaeger Armor + Luftwaffe. See diference? Yet no one is calling for nerf of LeFH beseides it can rape base in the same way.
If I'm doing random USF and got match with another USF and then, during the game, we badly need ISU to counter something because if we won't we gonna lose, what then? Nerf everything cause I did not have access to ISU?

Random is random and you agree for double OKW when you are doing since. But even tho, you can simply cloak Luchs or JPIV, sneak and kill it with off map which comes with Jaegers or use Spec Ops flares from teammate so no need to sneak.

There isn't a single OKW off map in the game that can kill a howitzer reliably. Most can't even target base sectors. And the reason why people don't complain about the LefH is that it doesn't do nearly as much damage as the ML-20 does and both USF and Soviets have counters to it.

There are 3 excellent IL-2 bombing run commanders, also Soviets have flare mortars now which can give you quite good recon for bombing runs. USF has air recon for their needs.

There isn't a single OKW off map in the game that can kill a howitzer reliably

The Elite Armor PzCommander off-map strike is reliable...Too bad you have to dive into the enemy base to use it

Best fix for howitzers would be a multi-phased approach, similar to what I saw lemon come up with earlier.

1) Buff Howitzer HP to not be killed by a single offmap.
2) Howitzers gain reduced range ~175.
3) Howitzers cannot be built in base.

This would give howitzers a trade off (offensive positioning to attack enemies, or defensive positiong to synergize with defenses), as well as reduce the shooting into base problem.

It would also make Howitzers ALOT easier for OKW to counter.

The Elite Armor PzCommander off-map strike is reliable...Too bad you have to dive into the enemy base to use it

Tried it, worked once out of 4 times.

It would also make Howitzers ALOT easier for OKW to counter.

Yes, but I would still like to see something akin to time on target, IL-2 bombing strike, or Dive Bomb for a reliable counter. It would be doctrinal and give some better counter play for OKW to use rather than "rush the howitzer and pray the enemy doesn't have mines".

There isn't a single OKW off map in the game that can kill a howitzer reliably. Most can't even target base sectors. And the reason why people don't complain about the LefH is that it doesn't do nearly as much damage as the ML-20 does and both USF and Soviets have counters to it.

There are 3 excellent IL-2 bombing run commanders, also Soviets have flare mortars now which can give you quite good recon for bombing runs. USF has air recon for their needs.

I tried off map which comes with Jaegers. ML-20 was destroyed 5/5.


Intresing, and how many those IL-2 commanders have recon? Cause motar flare does not have huge area and you need to move it really, really close to the base to see howie.

I tried off map which comes with Jaegers. ML-20 was destroyed 5/5.


Intresing, and how many those IL-2 commanders have recon? Cause motar flare does not have huge area and you need to move it really, really close to the base to see howie.

Getting close to the enemy base with like 1 infantry unit can give you sight to. And yeah Iv had 0 luck with the scavenge barrage for destroying the gun. Normally it just decrews or takes a bit of the crews health off.

OKW needs a reliable artillery counter. Just put one in a new commander or put it in Luftwaffe Ground Troops like I said so the doctrine is no longer ass.

Late war Germans didn't really use planes

For both LeFH-18 and ML-20, how about?

MP from 600 to 500
Popcap from 15 to 10
Health from 400 to 800 (makes ML20 survive a Stuka bomb)
Fuel from 0 to 50 (reflects increased survivability of both weapons)
Range from 250 to 200 (prevents baseraping)
Scatter from 18.5 to 15 (makes both weapons more accurate and therefore more reliable)

And then -

ML-20 damage from 300 to 200 (nerfs baseraping again)
LeFH damage from 160 to 120 (same thing)

And then possibly an AOE buff to improve the weapons' effectiveness against infantry.

Still, in 1v1 it's not issue since both sides can rape each other (Luvnest vs Ihitto). LeFH was raping Luvnest all the time, until he made suicide mission with T70. So what? Give Sov good doctrine with recon and dive bomb? I don't see threads like this.

In team games, well... You must fill up gaps so going for double OKW and than whine about ML20 is not good solution.

How about instead of clicking on the arty piece and ordering it to barrage, but instead infantry calls in the arty? like they have an ability to call in a salvo from the howitzer and the ability has a certain range like a grenade?

nice idea! We will see this feature, at the beginning of sept.

I think i got some definites down now for the OKW 2v2 vs ML-20

1) Using the scavenge artillery is not realistic, because you cannot reach the gun. You have to sacrifice a vehicle to get to drop the arty on the piece. And then it doesn't always get destroyed. So you wasted a vehicle in the attempt and even then, you would still need that vehicle on the field anyway..
But simply because the base is so difficult to reach in a real 2v2, i don't consider this a viable strat against it.

2) Destroying the gun with e.g. tanks in the base is not realistic.. well duh.

3) Getting a stuka to range can be difficult also, it's a pain and depends on how the current battle is going on the front. And if you succeed --> you decrew it and did some damage to the gun.. whee what great effect you had on it.

If it's possible for the arty to reach the base, then the game play is quite dreadful atm imo. I shall vote this the worst patch ever for OKW in 2v2, i wish i was joking. And all due to this arty piece. Nerf both arty pieces for ost and sov for great justice and remove cancerous game play.

Best fix for howitzers would be a multi-phased approach, similar to what I saw lemon come up with earlier.

1) Buff Howitzer HP to not be killed by a single offmap.
2) Howitzers gain reduced range ~175.
3) Howitzers cannot be built in base.

This would give howitzers a trade off (offensive positioning to attack enemies, or defensive positiong to synergize with defenses), as well as reduce the shooting into base problem.

It would also make Howitzers ALOT easier for OKW to counter.

I like the earlier suggestion about decreasing popcap and cost -

cost from 600 to 320 (cut build time in half)
popcap from 15 to 8
shells from 8+2 to 3 +1
can have 2 max (maybe 3)
maybe cut range some, but certainly leave it longer than walking stuka

(do something similar with OST)

This would nerf it a decent amount, without making it the next B4, and make it so that the stuka dive bomb is less effective (bigger muni sink) at countering it.