ML-20 and barraging the enemy base need a nerf.

Why is it that the ML-20 does a whopping 300 damage per shot?

Just played a game on Kholodny against a Soviet who used the typical con spam, T2, T3, quad M5 cheese. Game was pretty even until the damn ML-20 hit the field. As we were both struggling for the top VP his Ml-20 just shelled my base constantly, wiping out a unit or two on retreat, my med bunker and severely damaging my buildings. Now I didn't have arty in my doctrine, nor a recon pass (yes yes I know never do that herp derp)so with a little scouting I cleared a path just to the outside of his base (right-side).

I had to YOLO rush his ML-20 as it would probably wipe my base on its own. Ran into a tonne of mines and T34s and Su-85s just sitting around in his base guarding the ML-20. Managed to destroy the arty but it didn't end well for me ofc. Not much later he just built another one. After that it was pretty much over.

My point is: should static howitzers be able to barrage the HQ sector? Is the ML-20's 300 damage too much? I know recon + off-map can disable static emplacements, but in a drawn out game is sacrificing that much muni for a weapon that will be recrewed if it isn't destroyed really worth it?

For the same reason grens have LMG and cons have nothing.
Just get any doctrine with recon and stuka and laugh at all attempts at howis, like all other axis players.

For the same reason grens have LMG and cons have nothing.
Just get any doctrine with recon and stuka and laugh at all attempts at howis, like all other axis players.

So if I select a doctrine too early (he didn't present any clear indications) that doesn't have the recon + Stuka I'm screwed? I wouldn't exactly call that a fun meta.

300 damage is just too much. 200 would be ample. Barraging the HQ is just as cheap as it gets in my opinion.

ML-20 has huge range and does massive damage. It will need to be nerfed. We should all just abuse the hell out of it till it gets hit with the nerf bat. It worked well with Maxims, and it will with the ML-20 too.

Personal experience: last game was playing OKW 1v1 against soviet player and the ML-20 rolled out. After two salvos from it, it was game over. It will destroy a truck in two salvos.

Remember, abuse it till it gets nerfed!

ML-20 has huge range and does massive damage. It will need to be nerfed. We should all just abuse the hell out of it till it gets hit with the nerf bat. It worked well with Maxims, and it will with the ML-20 too.

Personal experience: last game was playing OKW 1v1 against soviet player and the ML-20 rolled out. After two salvos from it, it was game over. It will destroy a truck in two salvos.

Remember, abuse it till it gets nerfed!

I'd imagine it would be much worse for OKW if you didn't build T2 and don't have access to a Stuka zu Fuss. It would be pretty much GG if the ML-20 is defended well enough.

Either damage or shells per barrage need to get reduced.

For the same amount of shells (at vet 1) it deals too much damage.

Ostheer can use Stuka Dive Bombs but OKW?

OKW only has stuka zu fuss. And IF you can get it in range it only clears it and only destroys it 1 in the 7 times

I'm not one to cry "OP OP!" but this last patch has made Soviets a bit er...stronk?

Like the Ost vs USF matchup is retarded, while the Ost vs Soviet matchup is an uphill struggle for Ost the entire time. You hardly get a reprieve.

@Katitof:

What doctrine would you recommend that has the recon + Stuka combo apart from CAS?

I'm not one to cry "OP OP!" but this last patch has made Soviets a bit er...stronk?

Like the Ost vs USF matchup is retarded, while the Ost vs Soviet matchup is an uphill struggle for Ost the entire time. You hardly get a reprieve.

@Katitof:

What doctrine would you recommend that has the recon + Stuka combo apart from CAS?

The one with ele.

And if you're hipster you can go luftwaffe supply.

You can also simply pick any doc with art of your own, there is no more precision strike so you're as safe as the opponent is.

So if I select a doctrine too early (he didn't present any clear indications) that doesn't have the recon + Stuka I'm screwed? I wouldn't exactly call that a fun meta.

300 damage is just too much. 200 would be ample. Barraging the HQ is just as cheap as it gets in my opinion.

1) What means "screwed"? You've picked doctrine earlier to gain advantage of it.
He picks doctine later as a reaction to your pick - maybe he realized, that you will have hard time to counter it.

2) 200 damage will wipe squads just as well as 300 damage and would be enough to take out that medic bunker. Not sure what problem you trying to address with that change proposal.

3) It's not like ML-20 is free. It is fucking 600 MP. It is like Windustry manpower penalty, except you can't utilize its bonuses early to get snowball rolling, because of 8 CP requirement. You should take advantage of that too.


Barraging HQ is a chep trick, I agree with that. There isn't much counterplay for such tactics.
But let's not pretend that opponent does not pay well for such possibility.

Relic definitely should do something with that without nerfing stationary artillery pieces to oblivion, because... let's be honest - the reason is in small map size. On 4v4 maps you can't bombard enemy HQs from your base sector. Hell, you can do this only from like middle of map which is super risky position for on-map artillery.

1) What means "screwed"? You've picked doctrine earlier to gain advantage of it.
He picks doctine later as a reaction to your pick - maybe he realized, that you will have hard time to counter it.

2) 200 damage will wipe squads just as well as 300 damage and would be enough to take out that medic bunker. Not sure what problem you trying to address with that change proposal.

3) It's not like ML-20 is free. It is fucking 600 MP. It is like Windustry manpower penalty, except you can't utilize its bonuses early to get snowball rolling, because of 8 CP requirement. You should take advantage of that too.


Barraging HQ is a chep trick, I agree with that. There isn't much counterplay for such tactics.
But let's not pretend that opponent does not pay well for such possibility.

Relic definitely should do something with that without nerfing stationary artillery pieces to oblivion, because... let's be honest - the reason is in small map size. On 4v4 maps you can't bombard enemy HQs from your base sector. Hell, you can do this only from like middle of map which is super risky position for on-map artillery.

1) I wouldn't say it was early. Probably 10-12 minutes in. When does the ML-20 become available? Like 8 CP? It's not like it arrives super late at 12CP or anything, the game was still pretty even a that stage.

2) Or even reduce the damage to that of the LeFH and make it fire the same amount of rounds? Another solution would be to stop howitzers being able to barrage the HQ sector. I'd be fine with that.

3) So I'm supposed to steamroll my Soviet opponent before 8 CP, where I'm probably fielding one PzIV if I'm lucky? Rightio...

Don't get me wrong, I think the howitzer changes are awesome. But being able to barrage the opponent's HQ sector and just turtle your base meanwhile is very lame.

@Katitof:

What doctrine would you recommend that has the recon + Stuka combo apart from CAS?

A lot of doctrines have a recon pass with stuka dive bomb, best bet will be Luftwaffe supply (make up for lost teritory via resource drops). The only reason we see the ml20 now is because soviets can screen it properly with herpd da derp light vehicles at 8 mintues and shove you off the map. It it the same thing with b4 spam before, as soon as people knew how to counter it, the thing was never used again.

Give it some time, but it destroying hq in 2 salvos is still silly op.

Don't get me wrong, I think the howitzer changes are awesome. But being able to barrage the opponent's HQ sector and just turtle your base meanwhile is very lame.

Ml20 needs nerf yes, but we have to agree that OKW can do the same to USF base with stuka

Oh yes, the turtle is real.

I thought I can play okw again in 1vs1 this patch.
But then they buffed ml20 without giving okw a counter so I thought nvm

Ml20 needs nerf yes, but we have to agree that OKW can do the same to USF base with stuka

Oh yes, the turtle is real.

You've had your base obliterated by a Stuka while it sat in its HQ sector? Impressive.

It just needs to fire less shots...that is the rule:LeFh fire more shots with less damage,ML fires less shots,more damage...

These arty changes are terrible, endless shelling of a base is extremely boring and frustrating, It doesn't create enjoyable or dynamic gameplay.

It encourages turtling.

COH 1 howitzers did 200dmg per hit, except the brit 25 pounder which did only 125dmg per hit, but for some strange reason, PE: Hummel could 1 shot bridges while US howitzer could not.

People shelled enemy bases with artillery in COH 1 and it was part of the game, and it forced your opponent to attack your artillery or be shelled to death

Ml20 needs nerf yes, but we have to agree that OKW can do the same to USF base with stuka

Oh yes, the turtle is real.

what? comparing stuka to ml20? lol