Conscripts need mid-game buff

They really don't need those things. Cons are ok

They really don't need those things. Cons are ok

Let me guess, you don't play allies at all?

I'm sorry, but I don't think grens are performing in middle game neither. Their 4 models are wiped like hell and there's nothing you can do about it. You can't change cons and let grens as they are. I admit cons are weak, but they are cheap and have abilities like ourrah, which helps them flank, At nades, molotovs. They are an infatry unit designed to fill the battlefield and cause problems for opponents not as a powerfull strike force. People who want buffs for them just want to blob them and fuck around the map until heavy/mid vehicles are comming. Soviets may obtain good infantry combos if they mix in equal quantities conscripts with guards or add some shocks next to their cons. Not to mention the tank hunters doctrine where cons are anything but weak with the PTRS upgrade. In addition, with the incoming maxim buff, cons will get a nice support with these HMGs and their overall performance in game will be better while supported.

Finaly, I would want some AI buff for volks too, (don't know if you noted HOW WEAK are volks in startgame compared to cons, they simply cannot resist against them), but I don't know if this will be such a good idea.

Manny kids people around here just want buff this or this one, thinking nothing related to their required changes impact.

Yes

I kind of agree. While the OKW and Soviets have their issues, having actual line infantry and not pseudo elite as their basic troops adds to the strategy needed for both factions.

On topic, I think the reason people want Grenadieresque Conscripts is the lack of capable, cheap frontline troops in the Red Army. The jump from poorly trained farmer with rifle to elite Shock Troop and Guard is quite high, and Penals make little sense as a nondoc unit. I know that when I think of the Red Army in WWII, its core is capably equipped troops that compensate for their poor training with both numbers and experience.

Honestly if most Conscript heavy but crappy Doctrines (I can't think of any by name, but I'm talking bottom of the barrel commanders here) had Frontoviki upgrades that turned Conscripts into crappy Riflemen for a fur cost, I would be happy. Usage would be like Troop Training.

FRONTOVIKI UPGRADE

35 fuel

Decreases received acc per model, increases price. Units gain Frag grenade as ability. No more sandbags.

Two upgrades available for 45 munis, DP28 or SVT-40 package.

Supposedly multiplayer is set in 1944, by this time soviet troops were not poorly trained farmers who never shot a rifle before. Not to mention a lot of them weren't even farmers in the first place, but that's besides the point. Conscripts have no utility late game even with Orrah and molotoves. Even if molotoves were buff it would not solve the problem because of there short range and long cast time they are very easy to dodge. At nades is a hit or miss because they don't penetrate most of the time and there damage out put is so bad they can even flank effectively. Unlike volks who has vet 5, shreks, and a grenade

I'm sorry, but I don't think grens are performing in middle game neither. Their 4 models are wiped like hell and there's nothing you can do about it. You can't change cons and let grens as they are. I admit cons are weak, but they are cheap and have abilities like ourrah, which helps them flank, At nades, molotovs. They are an infatry unit designed to fill the battlefield and cause problems for opponents not as a powerfull strike force. People who want buffs for them just want to blob them and fuck around the map until heavy/mid vehicles are comming. Soviets may obtain good infantry combos if they mix in equal quantities conscripts with guards or add some shocks next to their cons. Not to mention the tank hunters doctrine where cons are anything but weak with the PTRS upgrade. In addition, with the incoming maxim buff, cons will get a nice support with these HMGs and their overall performance in game will be better while supported.

Finaly, I would want some AI buff for volks too, (don't know if you noted HOW WEAK are volks in startgame compared to cons, they simply cannot resist against them), but I don't know if this will be such a good idea.

Most people are not discussing early game. Its post tier 3 / battle phase 3 that cons become an irrelevance apart from merging into weapons teams and most suggestions seem to be about helping them at that point

Because cons dont scale late game, people spam engineers with flamers. Late gsme engineers > cons.

I wouldnt be against DP28 for conspricts, 50 muni

Because cons dont scale late game, people spam engineers with flamers. Late gsme engineers > cons.

I wouldnt be against DP28 for conspricts, 50 muni

No DPs, no more LMGs, infantry combat is fucked up enough thanks to LMGs and a-move skill players.
Non doctrinal PPSH would make ALL the sense, doctrinal conscript package could give some normal nade, light AI/AT mine, whatever, possibilities are wide.

But relic doesn't seem to be interested in making sense in this regard.

Orrah could scale with vet which would be an unique way to make them diffrent to other sqauds:

1 Vet: Increased RoF
2 Vet: Better accuracy
3 Vet: Longer duration

Also imo its time to rename them to Frontoviki or Strzelky.

You can't change cons and let grens as they are. I admit cons are weak, but they are cheap

I m sorry but are you able to know that 240 grens is the MP as 240 cons? Or you didnt get 1st math class yet.

I admit cons are weak, but they are cheap and have abilities like ourrah, which helps them flank, At nades, molotovs.

Meanwhile, that expensive grens cost the same 240 mp as the cheap cons.
That expensive grens reinforce full squad for 90mp while the cheap cons need 100mp.
That expensive grens don't need to flank, because they have Rnades that expensive grens also don't need to spend additional 25 fuel to use the Rnade. They also don't need to spend another 25 fuel to use inferior soft AT.

How come that cheap cons need MORE resources invested to them then these poor expensive grens and still are inferior to them?

Alex dropped on bullshit greatly recently, but knowing physics, nothing disappears into the void, I can tell all of his previous bullshit have found shelter in you.

You're completely clueless.

As long as cons and penals stay as they are, soviet meta will always center around call-ins.
While not tanks anymore, the need for doctrinal infantry is as strong as it ever was.
Even cheaper volks bring incomparably more to the table, have better doctrinal abilities, have better scaling and fight better at late game.

Their 4 models are wiped like hell

Thats a lie. They have the same HP as cons so single model is 1,5 more resistant to fire and wipe

tank hunters doctrine where cons are anything but weak with the PTRS upgrade.

Finaly, I would want some AI buff for volks too, (don't know if you noted HOW WEAK are volks in startgame compared to cons, they simply cannot resist against them), but I don't know if this will be such a good idea.

volks dont face mass LMG grens every game, they have normal grenades and rpgs. So its OK for 235MP.
Sturmpios are total garbage for their cost esp in late-mid.
But OKW has slight advantage cuz their teching is less expensive. And Schwer HQ is fighting unit itself.
Non doctrinal Cons PTRS upgrade would be totaly OK, it would be fair micro/macro battle vs lmg grens.

Americans have upgrades
Grenadiers have upgrades
Volks have upgrades
Conscripts ?????? have only shitty doctrinal ppsh upgrade and nerfed Ptrs upgrade. Even sandbags were nerfed. So cons must have something for late game. Maybe with veterancy they are becoming to strelki, with grenades and svt. Maybe make a dp upgrade, three dps for 80 ammo or two dps for 60 ammo. So something need to be done. Relic, make non doctrinal for cons while we have time to test it.

Would have to be 1 DP for 60 ammo lol...

Also... since the weapon profiles are separate (a Conscript DP would do the same as a guard DP). They would have to look at squad size OR cost...

Conscripts are currently the cheapest basic infantry because of their lack of upgrades. If youre going to give them LMG's then they need to be repriced (same reason Rifles and Grens are 28-30 mp per model NOT a nice cheap 20).

Same would apply if they gave Volks LMG's, they would need to be more expensive.

Meanwhile, that expensive grens cost the same 240 mp as the cheap cons.
That expensive grens reinforce full squad for 90mp while the cheap cons need 100mp.
That expensive grens don't need to flank, because they have Rnades that expensive grens also don't need to spend additional 25 fuel to use the Rnade. They also don't need to spend another 25 fuel to use inferior soft AT.

How come that cheap cons need MORE resources invested to them then these poor expensive grens and still are inferior to them?

Alex dropped on bullshit greatly recently, but knowing physics, nothing disappears into the void, I can tell all of his previous bullshit have found shelter in you.

You're completely clueless.

As long as cons and penals stay as they are, soviet meta will always center around call-ins.
While not tanks anymore, the need for doctrinal infantry is as strong as it ever was.
Even cheaper volks bring incomparably more to the table, have better doctrinal abilities, have better scaling and fight better at late game.

Cons are 20 per mode, Grens are 30 per model... Throwing up the "To reinforce from 1 man to full it would cost 90 for grens and 100 for cons" is just stupid and trying to cover up the actual costs per model and trying to make it sound like cons are actually more expensive...

And yeah Grens dont need to spend that extra 25 fuel on rifle nade.... Cos they start with 20 fuel, and sovs start with 50 fuel... and Wehrmacht costs more to tech (will soon be 130 fuel more). So.... yeah damn right they shouldn't have to buy the ability to fire rifle nades.

For someone who is usually the first to bang the "Asymmetrical balance" drum, youre having a pretty poor time of understanding it. Oh wait! thats because its a soviet buff thread and not an Axis one... My bad, Carry on being selective and hypocritical with your arguments when it suits.

I think they should get a universal PPSH upgrade and buff its range to mid like PG's and give a slight damage nerf to compensate if its too strong. And have the commander that have the upgrade make it cheaper to upgrade or something. That or DP's.

I kind of agree. While the OKW and Soviets have their issues, having actual line infantry and not pseudo elite as their basic troops adds to the strategy needed for both factions.

On topic, I think the reason people want Grenadieresque Conscripts is the lack of capable, cheap frontline troops in the Red Army. The jump from poorly trained farmer with rifle to elite Shock Troop and Guard is quite high, and Penals make little sense as a nondoc unit. I know that when I think of the Red Army in WWII, its core is capably equipped troops that compensate for their poor training with both numbers and experience.

Honestly if most Conscript heavy but crappy Doctrines (I can't think of any by name, but I'm talking bottom of the barrel commanders here) had Frontoviki upgrades that turned Conscripts into crappy Riflemen for a fur cost, I would be happy. Usage would be like Troop Training.

FRONTOVIKI UPGRADE

35 fuel

Decreases received acc per model, increases price. Units gain Frag grenade as ability. No more sandbags.

Two upgrades available for 45 munis, DP28 or SVT-40 package.

The name you chose is ridiculously good, but the whole problem with conscripts is they should scale as stock units, not with more doctrinal bullshit. I believe most considers buffed PPSH upgrade as a good idea, iconic, not LMG cancer etc. Now we take your Frontoviki Upgrade, replace packages with PPSH's and add sandbags back (why?). As a stock upgrade, it should be moderately expensive and well-timed, so placing it in T4 seems good. Cost to be aligned.

Alright, enough of talking obvious.

I also had an idea of making penals the true stock soviet elite infantry (lol) so they could start with cons and as the game progresses switch to penals for 40 fuel late game or have a well scaling inf from the start. Shame this idea makes no sense at all

Cons dont need a mid-game buff. Why? You have the ability to call-in guards and shocks.

Penals on the other-hand, complete shit. Even without the recieved accuracy penalty.

Cons dont need a mid-game buff. Why? You have the ability to call-in guards and shocks.

Penals on the other-hand, complete shit. Even without the recieved accuracy penalty.

guards and shocks are expensive and drain your man power, and they are just that elite infantry not mainline infantry

guards and shocks are expensive and drain your man power, and they are just that elite infantry not mainline infantry

Shocks maybe

Guards? No

I always get 6+ guards and i rarely bleed, they trade extremely effectively, especially in green cover. (5 rifles bleed more, fun fact)

Penals are the ones that need a buff, Imo they should be a threat to vetted grens at vet 3.

Also, ppsh needs a buff

Shocks maybe

Guards? No

I always get 6+ guards and i rarely bleed, they trade extremely effectively, especially in green cover. (5 rifles bleed more, fun fact)

Penals are the ones that need a buff, Imo they should be a threat to vetted grens at vet 3.

Also, ppsh needs a buff

6 guards for 330MP. And how many cons in that mix? And whats other units ussualy? Im only asking about 1v1.

6 guards. And how many cons in that mix? And whats other units ussualy? Im only asking about 1v1.

i was talking about 2v2+

in 1v1, u can only get about 2-4 guards with 2 or 3 cons

Edit: ptrs is getting nurfed, so guards might become useless again