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Jackson spam

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RobocopHighlander
2 Jun 2015, 20:14 PM
#161
avatar of RobocopHighlander

Posts: 55

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2015, 12:29 PMOmega_Warrior

An ability can counter something, but it isn't a hard-counter due to the dodgeable and momentary nature of abilities. The only exception I would say would be vs static targets which will pretty much be 100% killed with call in strikes.


There are plenty of ways to set up abilities so they can't be dodged - strafe on the edge of a map, offmap on retreat point set to hit right as retreating points arrive, etc. There is quite a disconnect right now between different offmap abilities - some are so easy to dodge they are effectively worthless, and some are nearly impossible to dodge. Many are in between. I guess I will repeat myself again - if something can quickly and easily kill your unit, and your unit cannot retaliate, then it is a hard counter. The stuka CAS strafe is an easy hard counter to jacksons - it will adjust its strafe aim even as it is mid-strafe and it is very difficult to dodge - on small maps it can be nearly impossible.
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Nuclear Arbitor
3 Jun 2015, 05:26 AM
#162
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2015, 04:16 AMRobocopHighlander
By your definition a KT would not be a hard counter to a rifle squad because it costs way more in relationship to the rifle - this is a stupid metric definition. If a unit or ability can easily wipe another unit, it is a hard counter regardless of cost.


can riflemen damage/kill a VI B? not significantly (just in case i actually need to say it: AT RG is not significant); therefore the VI B hardcounters rifles.

if you want to be more technical about it then compare roughly the same resource amount of rifles with VI Bs. again, it's not about cost it's about performance to cost in specific matchups. to use the AT gun example again a flanked AT gun doesn't do shit to a vehicle despite being a hardcounter to vehicles.
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WingZero
3 Jun 2015, 15:16 PM
#163
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

If your opponent is spaming Jackson, Wher player should build PGs with Shreks and let the Tiger handle the Riflemen blob. Remember, combined arms is the key.












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BeefSurge
3 Jun 2015, 19:45 PM
#164
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2015, 07:48 AMEsxile


Because its counter heavies. And Axis dedicated players are usually playing Axis because they like playing with big tanks and super heavies. Which isn't absurd since Ostheer and OKW have the strongest stock tanks and all the best call-in heavies execpt two.

Axis = best stock tanks with panther + KT
URSS = best call-in tank, IS-2
Axis = best heavy AT platform call-in, Pak + Jagtiger + elephant
URSS = best call-in mobile arty, ISU

So when USF comes with jackson, those people tend to cry because, if well managed (or better managed) it simply ruins their pleasure.


USF lategame relies on Shermans or HMCs for anti infantry though because Riflemen scale like garbage, unless were talking M1919 Paras or Rifles. So any Jackson purchases severely hurt lategame anti infantry and anti fortification, meaning Paks should eat Jacksons alive.
The Fascisti Will Pay.
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PanzerGeneralForever
6 Jun 2015, 17:02 PM
#165
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1072

For those of you who don't understand hardcounters, it is the unit that is most dedicated and cost effective in its role intended role.The Jackson is purely a tank destroyer with almost zero Anti Infantry capabilities. It was made to kill tanks therefore it is a hard counter to tanks. Tigers are not a hardcounter to anything because it servers as an effective soft counter to many units including mediums (can't chase them like panther) infantry, and support weapons. Same goes for Volks. While they are effective against tank destroyers they are not hard counters to them because they are also soft counters for many other units and aren't dedicated to destroying tank destroyers. Examples of some hard counters are the following. Paks (purely AT unit unlike Zis), HMGs ( purely AI unit), mortars ( "good vs static targets" this includes static infantry too), Elephant and jagd tiger (purely AT unlike ISU 152). Most other units are soft counters because enough of them can fill the role ofthe hardcounter.

When a faction doesn't have an effective hard counter to an effectove enemy soft counter, you get complaints because then you need alot of soft counters to counter the enemies effectove soft counter. Off the top of my head the best example would be the 120mm mortar. It is an effective soft counter to all axis infantry for the whole game. The complaining happens because this units true hardcounters are artillery and fast AI armored vehicles that can chase and finish off the crew (light ones are countered by guards) which won't hit the field for at least the first ten minutes of the game. The axis do have some cost effective counters to the 120mm mortar but they are both locked behind specific commanders (Fallschirms and mortar half track).
https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198060148756
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Brick Top
6 Jun 2015, 17:44 PM
#166
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1162

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jun 2015, 17:02 PMPanzerGeneralForever
While they are effective against tank destroyers they are not hard counters to them because they are also soft counters for many other units and aren't dedicated to destroying tank destroyers.


I disagree there, just because a unit happens to be effective against a few targets, does not mean its not a hard counter to some of them.

Good example is the scout car, this unit is the hard counter to snipers, but it is also useful against most forms of infantry, and even light vehicles. That does not mean its not a hard counter to snipers.

Another is any medium tank, which will be a hard counter to light vehicles, does not mean its also not useful against other vehicles and infantry...
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PanzerGeneralForever
6 Jun 2015, 18:33 PM
#167
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1072

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jun 2015, 17:44 PMBrick Top


I disagree there, just because a unit happens to be effective against a few targets, does not mean its not a hard counter to some of them.

Good example is the scout car, this unit is the hard counter to snipers, but it is also useful against most forms of infantry, and even light vehicles. That does not mean its not a hard counter to snipers.

Another is any medium tank, which will be a hard counter to light vehicles, does not mean its also not useful against other vehicles and infantry...


I see where you are coming from. The scout car is the hard counter to the sniper because its the most cost effective option for dealing effectively with snipers. While the scout car is also good against light vehicles it still isn't the hard counter to them because there are other more cost effective ways with dealing with light vehicles. A hard counter is the most cost effective unit for a specific role. While medium tanks are a very effective soft counter to light vehicles, it is not the most cost effective option. Mines are the most cost effective way of dealing with light vehicles because they were made for that. Its easy to get effective soft counters mixed up with hard counters.

An example of this would be the ISU 152. You can't say the ISU 152 is the hard counter to everything just because its very good at dealing with everything. This is because it costs so much and is out performed by other units RELATIVE to its cost. You don't buy an ISU 152 to deal with scout cars. You buy an ISU because it CAN deal with scout cars and many other things. The key here is cost relative to performance in a specific role.
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RobocopHighlander
7 Jun 2015, 01:54 AM
#168
avatar of RobocopHighlander

Posts: 55

I don't understand how so many of you can't understand what a hard counter is. How can you say a tiger isn't a hard counter to anything? A tiger is absolutely a hard counter to US riflemen - it is likely to wipe entire squads in 1 shot even if the squads have carefully cultivated vet 3 over the course of the game, they still have a good chance to get 1-shot. If you can kill a unit in 1 shot you are a hard counter to that unit no matter what your cost was. Hard counters are all about the ability to dominate a unit on the field - it doesn't matter what the price is. Or do you not think a KT is a hard counter to infantry either?
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Thunderhun
7 Jun 2015, 11:09 AM
#169
avatar of Thunderhun

Posts: 1617

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jun 2015, 01:54 AMRobocopHighlander
I don't understand how so many of you can't understand what a hard counter is. How can you say a tiger isn't a hard counter to anything? A tiger is absolutely a hard counter to US riflemen - it is likely to wipe entire squads in 1 shot even if the squads have carefully cultivated vet 3 over the course of the game, they still have a good chance to get 1-shot. If you can kill a unit in 1 shot you are a hard counter to that unit no matter what your cost was. Hard counters are all about the ability to dominate a unit on the field - it doesn't matter what the price is. Or do you not think a KT is a hard counter to infantry either?
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Brick Top
8 Jun 2015, 08:40 AM
#170
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1162

Yup, its pretty simple. Hard counters easily and reliably Kill, they might be cost effective, or not. Does not matter.


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Alexzandvar
8 Jun 2015, 10:09 AM
#171
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

The big reason why the Jackson is so hit or miss for many people is that if you have good micro there is literally not a single more cost effective tank in this game. If you have bad micro it's literal garbage.

USF in general needs much better AT options like the Zook to do better deflection damage or just higher damage in general and the 57mm to have slower ROF with better penetration. So the Jackson can get a rework to.

560 health, with a better ROF but only 160 damage. That way it would preform more consistently.
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Tea Maker Machine
8 Jun 2015, 11:09 AM
#172
avatar of Tea Maker Machine

Posts: 270

Such a powerful thong-destroyer shouldn't be so cheap. PopCap abuse is another issue which the dev don't know how to fix lol.
jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jun 2015, 10:57 AMKatitof
I'll try again.

The source of my frustrations that should be removed

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Alexzandvar
8 Jun 2015, 11:24 AM
#173
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

They could fix it by just tagging vehicle crews to specific vehicles so when you hop out your still taking up pop cap with the vehicle crew so no building/call in stuff while your tanks are decrewed.

This of course would be deemed "effort" and thus pop cap abuse just became a "feature" of USF like OKW getting full fuel/munition income is a feature of Luftwaffe supply crates
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Katitof
8 Jun 2015, 11:26 AM
#174
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jun 2015, 11:09 AMTea Maker Machine
Such a powerful thong-destroyer shouldn't be so cheap.


What if I told you the fragility and inability to self spot balance that out?
Also, we could tell exactly the same abut ele and JT.

Also, you present a screenshot of someone who clearly relies on a single unit(which can be seen and confirmed by the army comp) and being punished for it thanks to combined arms force balanced around infantry focusing on AI and armor on AT.

There is nothing wrong here except a scrub being countered by someone who does use his brain.

PopCap abuse is another issue which the dev don't know how to fix lol.

Have fun going at this ad infinitum-its intended design side effect, it won't be fix because:

-it can't be fixed
-its not broken
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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QueenRatchet123
8 Jun 2015, 11:42 AM
#175
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jun 2015, 11:24 AMAlexzandvar
They could fix it by just tagging vehicle crews to specific vehicles so when you hop out your still taking up pop cap with the vehicle crew so no building/call in stuff while your tanks are decrewed.



no
jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2015, 14:01 PMJohnnyB

There is no recording in all WW2 history of a piat actually knocking off a vehicle. Yes, it was THAT bad.
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Tea Maker Machine
8 Jun 2015, 11:44 AM
#176
avatar of Tea Maker Machine

Posts: 270

Hmmm so building 3 jacskons is a sign of "tactical brain usage". The guy lost a panther and a PIV to jacksons and he eventualy gave up, also his PAKs were stolen by zhe rambos.
jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jun 2015, 10:57 AMKatitof
I'll try again.

The source of my frustrations that should be removed

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QueenRatchet123
8 Jun 2015, 11:48 AM
#177
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jun 2015, 11:44 AMTea Maker Machine
Hmmm so building 3 jacskons is a sign of "tactical brain usage". The guy lost a panther and a PIV to jacksons and he eventualy gave up, also his PAKs were stolen by zhe rambos.


Whats the issue? tanks died to their counter.
jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2015, 14:01 PMJohnnyB

There is no recording in all WW2 history of a piat actually knocking off a vehicle. Yes, it was THAT bad.
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Alexzandvar
8 Jun 2015, 12:10 PM
#178
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jun 2015, 11:26 AMKatitof


-it can't be fixed
-its not broken


Actually it can be fixed, it's just that it would be hard (if you count adding in a special tank crew unit for each tank by just renaming "Tank Crew" to "Jackson Tank Crew or w/e") and it most definitely is broken just like OKW getting full fuel income from drops is broken.

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Grumpy
9 Jun 2015, 01:46 AM
#179
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1954

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jun 2015, 11:09 AMTea Maker Machine
Such a powerful thong-destroyer shouldn't be so cheap. PopCap abuse is another issue which the dev don't know how to fix lol.


Did you kill anything of your opponent's in this game (at least before the TA hit the field)? You spammed five engineers, backed them up with one grenadier and a turbo mortar, probably used all your fuel vetting up your units, bunker spammed like crazy, finally called in your Tiger Ace which cost 0 fuel, most likely lost, then came here and whined about USF cheese. What about that do you want the "clueless" devs to fix?
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Tea Maker Machine
9 Jun 2015, 06:47 AM
#180
avatar of Tea Maker Machine

Posts: 270

That's not me professor. PopCap limit, that's what the fans want to get fixed. Adjusting the fuel for the Jackson, and slightly buffing it's performance (such as accuracy) is another request by fans.
jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jun 2015, 10:57 AMKatitof
I'll try again.

The source of my frustrations that should be removed

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