The B4 and Commander roulette

to answer your question regarding okw barrages. their indirect fire options are sorta null. that said, zeroing can be mentally good. get your Wehr pal to provide a sniper or a vehicle with a spotting scope and make sure your particle effects are turned down.

It's one of those counter or die units. Similar to the old 100 range isu152 or object piercing jagdtiger.

Two of them went for B4, which means no ISU or IS-2, which means tigers and panthers(and just normal AT guns) have nothing to fear of, which leads to the question, why haven't you build 2nd stuka? OKW have absolutely no problems with AT in 2v2, especially if there is no IS-2 or ISU involved.

Heavy arty play requires heavy arty counterplay.

Your team mate also did, as you mentioned, a critical mistake of selecting wrong doctrine.

Its soviets who are the ones who need to pick doctrine early, Ostheer have nothing doctrinal and mandatory for early game unless you play Jeager infantry.

And commanders are supplementary for all factions except Soviets, which build their whole strategy around the early doctrine choice.

You have simply failed to adapt to counterplay and did it "the soviet way" which means you followed strict BO instead of checking what opponent is developing and adapting to it with proper counterplay.

This would sum up my response as well.

The problem with B4 is twofold. The first issue is that if you've got nothing to counter it, it's game-winning in competent hands. The second issue is that if they do have a doctrinal counter to it, the B4 is completely useless.

CAS doctrine being part of the team game meta for Axis now means that realistically the B4 isn't very effective overall. But when I see a team composed solely of OKW it's party time, because they don't get doctrinal hard-counters to static artillery.

The B4 needs to be made less easy to hard counter just by going the right doctrine, but also less of a game-winning unit. Doctrines shouldn't just neutralize setpiece units from other doctrines, esp. when one team doesn't have to pick as early as the other.

ostheer CAS is so common nowadays in 2v2s+ B4 is hardly useful.

From a design standpoint, Soviet indirect fire is meant for battering fortified german positions and armour. Werh indirect fire is meant for countering the soviet stuff. (Hence why it tends to have less damage, more accuracy and counter barrage abilities accross the board).

lol

Read 'Cheesy' as 'Only effective soviet options', but yes. If these turn up, you may have to work for a victory in a team game.

Uh, since when do Soviets lack for effective options? The IS2 commander is one of the best in the game, massed IS2's in team games can become impossible to beat even if you get a KT out because they will have 2 IS2's for every KT you have.

IS2 spam can pretty much only be countered by Multiple Elefants and Jadgtigers.

In team games the amount of options for all factions expands, it doesn't contract. Not to mention multiple T34/85's along with Jackson support can be extremely deadly.

I think the B4 should have reduced range and price but maintain its hasty cooldown and be kind of like an analog to the Pak43 with its direct fire ability.

Uh, since when do Soviets lack for effective options? The IS2 commander is one of the best in the game, massed IS2's in team games can become impossible to beat even if you get a KT out because they will have 2 IS2's for every KT you have.

IS2 spam can pretty much only be countered by Multiple Elefants and Jadgtigers.

In team games the amount of options for all factions expands, it doesn't contract. Not to mention multiple T34/85's along with Jackson support can be extremely deadly.

Very good. Now remind me, in which tier can I call these stock units?

Very good. Now remind me, in which tier can I call these stock units?

Was it not obvious enough I that I was referencing commanders? Soviet stock units are not as universally terrible as you might think either, The Katyusha is very effective in team games, as is T1.

There is a plentiful amount of good Soviet commanders worth taking, don't act intentionally dense.

Uh, since when do Soviets lack for effective options? The IS2 commander is one of the best in the game, massed IS2's in team games can become impossible to beat even if you get a KT out because they will have 2 IS2's for every KT you have.

IS2 spam can pretty much only be countered by Multiple Elefants and Jadgtigers.

In team games the amount of options for all factions expands, it doesn't contract. Not to mention multiple T34/85's along with Jackson support can be extremely deadly.

You dont need KT to counter IS2.
Panther can do it very well since it has better range.

You can also combine KT with pak 43. KT+pak can easily counter 2 IS2s.
Not to mention that you will get IS2 around 25min while in 4v4 can hit the field around 15. By the time second IS2 arrives you can get a Panther. Even in 1v1 2 IS2s are facing KT and Panther so I have no idea how did you figure out that OKW can get only 1 KT and nothing more.

In fact you dont need anything more. In 1v1 Ive killed many IS2 with pak 43 doctrine (Ostheer one with railway-artillery).

Uh, since when do Soviets lack for effective options? The IS2 commander is one of the best in the game, massed IS2's in team games can become impossible to beat even if you get a KT out because they will have 2 IS2's for every KT you have.

IS2 spam can pretty much only be countered by Multiple Elefants and Jadgtigers.

In team games the amount of options for all factions expands, it doesn't contract. Not to mention multiple T34/85's along with Jackson support can be extremely deadly.

That's funny. You're funny.

IS2's are counterable with units entirely out of OKW tier 0.

Racketens have enormous pen out of the gate and volks are vet 5 by the time they fire 3 shrecks at an IS2. Racketens also vet up quickly, and are retreatable for easy preservation (and easy re-crewing). Yes, they die easy, but so do all AT guns.

Yes, it's not ideal, and will bleed you MP, but there's absolutely no excuse for losing a KT to nohing but IS2's as long as your infantry is alive. And it should be, because obers obliterate allied infantry in comical fashion.

You dont need KT to counter IS2.
Panther can do it very well since it has better range.

You can also combine KT with pak 43. KT+pak can easily counter 2 IS2s.
Not to mention that you will get IS2 around 25min while in 4v4 can hit the field around 15. By the time second IS2 arrives you can get a Panther. Even in 1v1 2 IS2s are facing KT and Panther so I have no idea how did you figure out that OKW can get only 1 KT and nothing more.

In fact you dont need anything more. In 1v1 Ive killed many IS2 with pak 43 doctrine (Ostheer one with railway-artillery).

Uh, we are talking about multiple IS2's in conjunction with other units specifically in team games were you have multiple factions.

Panthers aren't a reliable counter to multiple IS2's due to the lack of DPS a Panther can put out if you even assume all the shots from the Panther penetrates.

OFC you also assume with the Pak43 that it's impossible to decrew, which it isn't and you get a tool in the best IS2 doctrine (flame barrage) to deal with it.

KT in any game mode isn't a reliable counter to IS2's simply because they can out produce you, at 380 fuel (tech costs included) your paying a LOT for that KT compared to what he's paying for that IS2, not to mention dealing with the reduced fuel income...

In 1's it's a drastically different story from 4's, and comparing the two in unit usefulness isn't easy.

That's funny. You're funny.

IS2's are counterable with units entirely out of OKW tier 0.

Racketens have enormous pen out of the gate and volks are vet 5 by the time they fire 3 shrecks at an IS2. Racketens also vet up quickly, and are retreatable for easy preservation (and easy re-crewing). Yes, they die easy, but so do all AT guns.

Yes, it's not ideal, and will bleed you MP, but there's absolutely no excuse for losing a KT to nohing but IS2's as long as your infantry is alive. And it should be, because obers obliterate allied infantry in comical fashion.

This is entirely assuming A. you are not using shock troops which rip Volks to shreds B. He's wasting MP on Racktens which means he's an idiot C. That the shreks pen the IS2 (and they won't take 3 pens to hit vet 5) D. The IS2 isn't one shotting squads as it often does (or at least severely damage them) and finally E. That in a team game that your KT isn't being shot at by more than the IS2's and that your only facing 1-2 IS2's when with 3 Soviet players you can easily get 3+.

The puppchen is total unmitigated garbage, works kinda okay with trenchs and buildings, but by the late game it's useless because all the buildings will be dead and the DPS on the field is way to high for it to stick around.

hmm I guess I underestimated the importance of a varied commander loadout. What do i do as okw though? will the barrages in any of their commanders work? or am i stuck with the stuka?

All OKW artillery barrage commander abilities are awful. Destroy them with tank if you can get there (usually not easy, but sometimes you have an opportunity), decrew with Fallschirmjäger / Jäger Light Infantry or shoot with Stuka on it.

If you play team games the best idea is however to delegate the task to an Ostheer player if there is one in your team.

Panther needs 3 shots to destroy B4, so you have to stick around for around 15 seconds or so.

This is entirely assuming A. you are not using shock troops which rip Volks to shreds B. He's wasting MP on Racktens which means he's an idiot C. That the shreks pen the IS2 (and they won't take 3 pens to hit vet 5) D. The IS2 isn't one shotting squads as it often does (or at least severely damage them) and finally E. That in a team game that your KT isn't being shot at by more than the IS2's and that your only facing 1-2 IS2's when with 3 Soviet players you can easily get 3+.

The puppchen is total unmitigated garbage, works kinda okay with trenchs and buildings, but by the late game it's useless because all the buildings will be dead and the DPS on the field is way to high for it to stick around.

Obers still rip shocks to shreds before they can close in. Problem still isn't a problem. Also, KT is immeasurably more dangerous to infantry, seing as both the KT and IS2 are on the field.

5 man volk squads very rarely get one shotted, while we're at it, and racketen with a bit of vet has all the range and damage buffs it needs to do just fine against armour centric soviet builds.

Regardless, if all three soviet players are swinging IS2's around just at your KT, what the feth are your allies doing? Because one of them is and should have a Jagdtiger by now.

The point wasn't that you should be using OKW tier 0 to solo IS2's. The point was that your core infantry and tier 0 building make your army a walking AT clustergarden which your KT can back into safely at any given time whilst still shilding your infantry from shock troops.

Soviets aren't Axis, they can't obliterate infantry using their elite infantry from max range.

you cant deny the fact that double b4 hurts. provided axis doesnt go cas or something similar.

I always keep the Elefant and/ or CAS in my commander loadout for the B4.

It´s useless if you have recon + Stuka. It´s horribly overpowered if you don´t.

I still don´t know why so many Soviets go for it even after they have seen CAS/ Elefant in the load-out. Don´t do it, it´s your own fault.

The same way I´m forced to block commander slots with recon + Stukas.

In this case I'm inclined to agree that the B4 has far too dramatic of an affect on match outcome to the extent that it is a binary decision.

.. and thats the crux of the matter.
This is a game design issue not a balancing issue.

I think this can be solved by B4 not being destroyed by Stuka just like Pak43 is. Stuka is a BS strike with how it can hit the base sector anyway, same as Incendiary.

And then remove damage bonus for B4's vet 3 so you can't instagib Panthers with it, and then its good. Make Vet 3 something else for it.