The B4 and Commander roulette

Apologies for wall of text in advance.

So i just had a 2v2 on trois ponts with a friend of mine. It was going pretty well and the points were ticking in our favour as the enemy had decided to camp up which I found weird as stalemates tend to favour axis due to their generally superior late game units. as the vps were around 150ish the double soviet allies pulled out a B4 and just began systematically destroying our troops, especially my friends artillery positions, I had a walking stuka and blasted it a few times but it takes two barrages to kill it and by the time the barrage was recharged it had already been repaired. Obviously it's the point of the B4 to counter static play but on a map like that it's hard to be mobile and the B4 borders on the uncounterable by practical means. On the other hand if my team mate had gone CAS a stuka bomb would of one shotted it and the game would probably have been won right there.

Am I the only one that thinks that this sort of stuff is dumb? the map is so tight packed and hard to manoeuvre in that you don't have to blob to be punished severely by a B4, but simply by picking another commander we could of totally shut down the main focus of their strategy and gained a massive advantage with no real effort.
Aren't commanders meant to be supplementary? obviously some commanders are going to be better than others and better in specific circumstances but it sometimes feels like a game is decided more by commander choices than by unit control or micro.

On another note what else could I actually have done to deal with it? besides the obvious like try and spread out more or stuka it because while those things help against it they don't really win games, I was tempted to try and rush it but it was far back in their base and surrounded by lots of su85s and mines, the other team obviously had this pretty well planned out.

Any help would be appreciated.

Two of them went for B4, which means no ISU or IS-2, which means tigers and panthers(and just normal AT guns) have nothing to fear of, which leads to the question, why haven't you build 2nd stuka? OKW have absolutely no problems with AT in 2v2, especially if there is no IS-2 or ISU involved.

Heavy arty play requires heavy arty counterplay.

Your team mate also did, as you mentioned, a critical mistake of selecting wrong doctrine.

Its soviets who are the ones who need to pick doctrine early, Ostheer have nothing doctrinal and mandatory for early game unless you play Jeager infantry.

And commanders are supplementary for all factions except Soviets, which build their whole strategy around the early doctrine choice.

You have simply failed to adapt to counterplay and did it "the soviet way" which means you followed strict BO instead of checking what opponent is developing and adapting to it with proper counterplay.

Also I recommend in the future posting things like this in the strategy section along with a replay so that members like Katitof can further help you!

In this case I'm inclined to agree that the B4 has far too dramatic of an affect on match outcome to the extent that it is a binary decision. Can the opposing team counter the B4 with a stuka dive bomb? If they can then choose a different commander and play normally. If they can't choose counterattack tactics for an almost guaranteed win.

Right now with the prevalence of CAS the B4 is a poor choice most games as there will typically be a counter on the field. That said, it is still terrible for balance that a handful of wher commanders can counter all on-field arty and that one soviet commander can completely take over a game if not countered.

The best fix to the issue would be to simply remove precision strike from the B4. Precision strike is what makes the B4 go from scary arty to completely game changing arty. With precision strike B4 can snipe tanks, buildings, and stationary infantry blobs halfway across the map with ease. Without precision strike the B4 would be subject to more randomness and less consistently destroy units with every shot.

Of course fixing the B4 is only half the issue. Stuka dive bomb also needs to be changed so that it doesn't erase static arty. If the stuka was changed so that it only decrewed static arty instead of erasing the gun from the field a lot more soviet commanders would be (somewhat) viable.

If these two changes were made then whermacht wouldn't be pigeonholed into always keeping CAS (or Luftwaffe supply/the elephant commander) on their bar from fear of the B4 and building static arty as a soviet player would be viable even if CAS was present.

It would be better if you provided a replay. As Katitof said, you have selected wrong commanders. As Axis (even as OKW) do not choose commanders early, wait until you are sure about enemy's commander selection (pay attention in loading screen).

You had to focus on medium armor (PzIV, Stug if they go T2, Ostwind for shocks and Pumas as OKW). No ISU/IS2 means PzIVs can dominate the field.
Stuka dive bombings are also hard counters. Try CAS, but do not convert tot much fuel to muni. Try to field at least 2 PzIVs, kill the B4, rush with PzIVs and use strafes.

thanks for all your input! sorry if it sounded a bit whiney but I was pretty unimpressed at the time. One went for counterattack and built multiple B4s and the other went for an is2 doctrine, I didn't get a second stuka as I was worried about them overrunning us with tanks and shocks and decided to hold out for a kt. while it turned out to be the wrong doctrine my teammate did not choose early in the match but about halfway through just before the B4 was shown which was kinda unlucky i guess.

i was actually planning to upload the replay but didn't manually save it and accidentally overwrote it by playing another match.

thanks for all your input! sorry if it sounded a bit whiney but I was pretty unimpressed at the time. One went for counterattack and built multiple B4s and the other went for an is2 doctrine, I didn't get a second stuka as I was worried about them overrunning us with tanks and shocks and decided to hold out for a kt. while it turned out to be the wrong doctrine my teammate did not choose early in the match but about halfway through just before the B4 was shown which was kinda unlucky i guess.

i was actually planning to upload the replay but didn't manually save it and accidentally overwrote it by playing another match.

Yeah that can be pretty hard to deal with then. Either have CAS doctrine or expect to lose on maps like trois point and semoisky easily. Because all the b4 needs is like 2-3 squad wipes or a single tank to pay for itself and it usually kills more than that per match. So literally you need to stuka dive bomb it immediately after it fires or you are going to lose a battle that drags on hard.

thanks for all your input! sorry if it sounded a bit whiney but I was pretty unimpressed at the time. One went for counterattack and built multiple B4s and the other went for an is2 doctrine, I didn't get a second stuka as I was worried about them overrunning us with tanks and shocks and decided to hold out for a kt. while it turned out to be the wrong doctrine my teammate did not choose early in the match but about halfway through just before the B4 was shown which was kinda unlucky i guess.

i was actually planning to upload the replay but didn't manually save it and accidentally overwrote it by playing another match.

Basically, if they go for B4, you will not see much armor, at least not early as KV-1 while dominating P4 1v1, will loose if its supported by anything and hefty mp price for both, KV-1 and arty makes them pretty much mutually exclusive choice at 8th cp.

Check commander during loading.

B4 and FHQ means that you've to prepare yourself for "cheesy" things. So hold on your commander selection or have a plan in order to deal with those things.

Its quite simple. Wait to see which tactic enemy has chose.
If you pick up doctrine in the first 4mins, well...

Soviets usually need to pick up doctrine earlier than Axis so just Wait.

Many times its enough just to have doctrine with Stuka in load out. Its enough scary for Soviets to not to go for B4.

And there are many doctrines to counter it.

CAS and festung armor are obvious ones but there is also Luftwaffe, and ostruppen or the one with Pak 43 and railway-artillery. Its harder than Stuka cause you need vision and you dont have recon but your teammate can provide it.
Just use railway-artillery on B4 then since first shell will Land in the middle its 100% to kill b4.

hmm I guess I underestimated the importance of a varied commander loadout. What do i do as okw though? will the barrages in any of their commanders work? or am i stuck with the stuka?

As OKW consider using a commander with troops that can be called in from buildings. You can decrew then recrew the B4 and force him to kill his own gun.

Or since he is all in on static pieces do what Katitof said and go for armor of some kind to hit the flank. One panther and 3(?) shots should kill it.

If you have a stuka you can shoot the B4, but you might consider clearing out any supporting troops and then using a quick attack to blow it up.

I do agree with you binary decisions are a mark of poor design, and the Soviets are the great failure that is faction design.

Check commander during loading.

B4 and FHQ means that you've to prepare yourself for "cheesy" things. So hold on your commander selection or have a plan in order to deal with those things.

Read 'Cheesy' as 'Only effective soviet options', but yes. If these turn up, you may have to work for a victory in a team game.

they had it very well protected and hidden in their base, I had to get my walking stuka dangerously close to get the barrage off and it eventually got sniped by su85s. I was tempted to go in with a tank assault as we harassed them quite constantly but they had a lot of anti tank and mines so I decided against it.

Is it normally a good idea to gamble on a base dive? it seems crazy risking tanks for a mp only artillery piece that they can just rebuild

yep. b4 is dumb.

they had it very well protected and hidden in their base, I had to get my walking stuka dangerously close to get the barrage off and it eventually got sniped by su85s. I was tempted to go in with a tank assault as we harassed them quite constantly but they had a lot of anti tank and mines so I decided against it.

Is it normally a good idea to gamble on a base dive? it seems crazy risking tanks for a mp only artillery piece that they can just rebuild

it's a terrible idea as most tanks take close to a minute to kill an artillery piece, AT orient tanks are worse, and there's almost always a shit ton of AT between you and their base. plus with the B4 they can shoot your tank with direct fire, difficult to use as it is.

if you have enough tanks to safely base raid you should have enough tanks to run any enemy over.

Remember B4 needs vet to use precision, and without it is VERY innacurate.

So simply managing to decrew it every once in a while will immensley reduce its potential. Obviously this is easier to achieve than completely destroying it and can be done with infiltration units (as mentioned) or just a simple incendiary ability (plane/MHT).

Alternativley, I think the LefH is a pretty good counter, so long as you dont reveal it before you target his B4. Wait until he has just fired at your units, then rain shells on it. Almost certain to take it out with a LefH with the added bonus of keeping engies at bay.

He might rebuild it and obviously will target your LefH, but its a lottery if it will hit where as yours will return fire very efficiently, you can even use the counter battery ability.

Even if he does hit yours, you can rebuild and repeat the above process to keep it dead/out of the game indefinatley.



From a design standpoint, Soviet indirect fire is meant for battering fortified german positions and armour. Werh indirect fire is meant for countering the soviet stuff. (Hence why it tends to have less damage, more accuracy and counter barrage abilities accross the board).

Always have scavenger doctrine for this commander. you need arty against it otherwise you will lose the game.

If you are forced into using a stuka. practice with it: see where the stuka bombs on which arrows. remember it because you need 2 direct hits to kill a b4.

Read 'Cheesy' as 'Only effective soviet options', but yes. If these turn up, you may have to work for a victory in a team game.

There are worlds of difference between 1v1, 2v2 and 3v3+

FHQ works on specific maps and scenarios, mostly on buildings which don't die to 1 stuka barrage. You are "all in" in beating your opponent early on, which can be done with quite a high chance.

B4 is almost uncounterable for OKW. Semois, Trois Point or any other map on which it can be built inside your base and you won't have any answer for it.

FMR damage bonus, increase damage on vet and precision strike is stupid design for the B4. When you are using PS on ML20 or Katyushka, you are at least sacrificing 75% of your payload for a single shot. Since the B4 already just shoots 1 shell, and taking into account the damage of that shell, yeah...

-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-

1v1: theres at least some "sacrifice" around having a Howitzer.
2v2: yeah, if you go 2x OKW use scavenge or be ready to suffer the consequences. With OH you should be fine since there are a lot of commanders which can take it out. Railway, bombing strike, stuka, AT strafe, light artillery + something else (pretty sure it can't 1 shot it anymore).
3v3+: what the hell are you not doing with some offmap!

3v3+: what the hell are you not doing with some offmap!

This

Doesn't help OP of course