OKW manpower penalty?

That is in the past. At this moment okw really struggles in infantry battles. im really interested to see their win/loss ratio in 1vs1 now.

I would be interested as well. And they are still floating MP in almost every game I play against them. To the point of being able to replace entire blobs I have Demod. The only people that seem to suffer are folks that contantly Spam Falls and lose squads left right and center.

I would be interested as well. And they are still floating MP in almost every game I play against them. To the point of being able to replace entire blobs I have Demod. The only people that seem to suffer are folks that contantly Spam Falls and lose squads left right and center.

If you spam conscripts as Soviets, you won't be lacking for MP income either. The problem is that Soviets have other options other than just getting buttloads of conscripts, those options are not presented to the OKW player because of the artificial income disability.

No, you buy your initial squads and if you didn't take any serious losses during engagement you start floating MP waiting for tanks. If you're smart and take your fights wisely you can hold on to your side of the map and using Flack truck sit tight until tanks arrive without any other spending. OKW early game ahsn't been affected by last patch if I remember correctly.
If you will be able to use this outstanding manpower to convert it into other resources you will be able to field Panther in like 10th minute of the game which is unbalanced as f'''k.

You can't rely on Volks to deal with enemy infantry, it doesn't work like that. You need to get elite infantry out which takes up a fair amount of population cap and manpower. The issue is that when the mid game hits and every faction starts getting tanks (thus spending MP on them) OKW is sitting around twiddling it's thumbs just being forced to make more infantry.

If you put Opal trucks in, at say 320 MP, you would see a lot less MP float as OKW would have an option to increase fuel and munitions in come at a cost to MP income. This would put them on par with all the other factions, who all have ways to converting MP into fuel and munitions income.

That in addition to say giving OKW more support weapons.

Lets look at infantry unit lists for units dedicated to fighting enemy infantry,

USF mainline infantry:

Riflemen, Para's

Ostheer:

Assault grens, grens, un-upgraded p grens

Soviets:

Cons, Penals, Shocks, Ass guards
OKW:

Volks, Sturms, Obers, Fuss, JLI, Fallsch

OKW has a buttload of regular mainline infantry, but extremely little support weapons

USF:

.50 cal, Pack Howitzer, AT Gun

Ost:

Sniper, Mortar, MG42, Pak 40, Pak 43, LefH

Soviets:

120mm, 82mm, ZiS, 45mm AT gun, B4, M-20, maxim, sniper

OKW:

ISG, Rackten, MG34, Pak43

All the USF support weapons are non-doctrinal, only 2 of the Ost support weapons are doctrine based 4 of the Soviet ones are doctrine based, but come in many doctrines, and 1/2 of OKW's support weapons are doctrinal.

OKW lacks the tools to use combined arms, and it has a fuckload of regular infantry.

cept it gets killed by 2 shreck hits

Scotts have 320 health. hurr. Scotts hard counter volks with shrecks with just a little kiting. Same way you'd just kite tigers with jacksons. Except a scott only requires 1-2 hits to cause a retreat/wipe. Scotts were a little OP last patch and are still quite effective this patch. The scott is more than enough.

Scotts have 320 health. hurr. Scotts hard counter volks with shrecks with just a little kiting. Same way you'd just kite tigers with jacksons. Except a scott only requires 1-2 hits to cause a retreat/wipe. Scotts were a little OP last patch and are still quite effective this patch. The scott is more than enough.

I honestly like the Scott better this patch. Bigger and less lethal AOE means it will always be doing SOME damage and not as RNGy.

I honestly like the Scott better this patch. Bigger and less lethal AOE means it will always be doing SOME damage and not as RNGy.

Same for 120s, I would even say the 1 hit kill zones for these things should be nerfed further in compensation for either bigger AOE or more lethal damage at outer radius of explosion. These units still have a good wipe frequency and are still pretty RNG like.

I honestly like the Scott better this patch. Bigger and less lethal AOE means it will always be doing SOME damage and not as RNGy.

HMC splash damage deals 80 damage at ~1.38 radius before patch.
HMC splash damage deals 80 damage at ~1.35 radius after patch.

They changed it by .03 dude. lol

I honestly like the Scott better this patch. Bigger and less lethal AOE means it will always be doing SOME damage and not as RNGy.

Glad to hear. It definitely worked before, but it was kinda annoying that sometimes I'd kite a blob with it until the blob got suppressed by base HMGs (it'd beat back a few of the squads, but the majority of the blob continued to pursue) ...

Perhaps a "scaled" manpower income for OKW? The more tiers you build the higher your MP income. Eventually you have to build all of them anyways (if not for KT) so it's inevitable that OKW players will just have all tiers built. But this would influence players' strategy: more infantry blobbing means more trucks deployed sooner rather than later (and strategically).
The existence of vehicle alternatives would also encourage players to resort to vehicles instead of spamming infantry. Of course the price for vehicles would have to be adjusted, at least for the MP side. ATM the vehicles are massive mp AND fuel hogs so OKW players have plenty of reason to not play with vehicles until that KT or Panther arrives.

So what might happen then is that OKW starts off with a lower MP income than other factions, but progressively get more as they deploy trucks. They'll never really float MP anymore because the income is just not there until the next truck has arrived. The economy scales as the trucks are deployed, perhaps permanently so the penalties are not unforgiving if the OKW player suffers a few setbacks. By the time they have their max income rate, they're probably already trying to save up for KT or using it for an Obersoldaten squad.

There could also be doctrinal abilities like Soviet Industry where munitions or fuel income is gained in exchange for decreased MP income.
Hell it could just be another toggle option for the mechanized truck, where it just accelerates your other resource income by spending your manpower instead of going into another Volks squad.

Another idea would work a bit like Redistribute Resources, but instead of an instant buy, in exchange for an immediate manpower cost your munitions/fuel rate is increased slightly for a duration. I much prefer a Panther or KT in place of Volks or Obers by the time I have the flak truck HQ deployed. As-is, I have no choice besides sit around do nothing because blobbing is so evil, or blobbing to maintain my economic position.

Yet another idea is to simply revamp the resource conversion- instead of juggling between muni or fuel, it's juggling manpower for these two resources, one or the other or both. You're exchanging your manpower income for an increased income for these resources, which is always at a premium for OKW. I prefer fighting with a few Volks with panzerschrecks than several Volks without them.

Same for 120s, I would even say the 1 hit kill zones for these things should be nerfed further in compensation for either bigger AOE or more lethal damage at outer radius of explosion. These units still have a good wipe frequency and are still pretty RNG like.

I would honestly like to see this pushed to a further extreme with more Indirect fire. It would discourage blobbing if ALL indirect fire such as Kats, Werfers, Mortars etc all had very large non lethal AOEs. So it wont whipe individual squads but do health damage to a larger area making Blobs weak on approach.

Hopefully this is Relic looking towards the future.

Yeah I was thinking just the other day that all explosives should have total radius increase but have their lethal radius decrease. An across the board thing. Maybe just for arty/mortars, maybe including tanks (not sure). It would make indirect fire more of a counter to concentrated units, while less effective vs single squads / less likely to squadwipe unless you had multiple units hitting simultaneously.

So why are we proposing to nerf their mp as well as there fuel and munitions?? Why?

OKW float manpower because (my opinion):
-some units cost to little pop cap, therefore the mp gain is bigger
-Vehicles and tanks are expensive in MP and POP cap, OKW can fight and sometimes win without vehicles and tanks thus more MP
-Volks are a cheap meatshield so other units dont get hurt to much.

of topic:
IF we bring back 100% munitions and fuel it will not increase the overall vehicle count of the OKW army but the numbers of KT and Jagdtigers in the end game. The main design problem with OKW is KT and Jagdtiger. Delete them both replace with something else or dont replace at all, give 100% fuel and maybe just maybe we will see a normal game without Panther spam (altough players tend to play the easiest tactics so less effort big Win).

If you spam conscripts as Soviets, you won't be lacking for MP income either. The problem is that Soviets have other options other than just getting buttloads of conscripts, those options are not presented to the OKW player because of the artificial income disability.



You can't rely on Volks to deal with enemy infantry, it doesn't work like that. You need to get elite infantry out which takes up a fair amount of population cap and manpower. The issue is that when the mid game hits and every faction starts getting tanks (thus spending MP on them) OKW is sitting around twiddling it's thumbs just being forced to make more infantry.

If you put Opal trucks in, at say 320 MP, you would see a lot less MP float as OKW would have an option to increase fuel and munitions in come at a cost to MP income. This would put them on par with all the other factions, who all have ways to converting MP into fuel and munitions income.

That in addition to say giving OKW more support weapons.

Lets look at infantry unit lists for units dedicated to fighting enemy infantry,

USF mainline infantry:

Riflemen, Para's

Ostheer:

Assault grens, grens, un-upgraded p grens

Soviets:

Cons, Penals, Shocks, Ass guards
OKW:

Volks, Sturms, Obers, Fuss, JLI, Fallsch

OKW has a buttload of regular mainline infantry, but extremely little support weapons

USF:

.50 cal, Pack Howitzer, AT Gun

Ost:

Sniper, Mortar, MG42, Pak 40, Pak 43, LefH

Soviets:

120mm, 82mm, ZiS, 45mm AT gun, B4, M-20, maxim, sniper

OKW:

ISG, Rackten, MG34, Pak43

All the USF support weapons are non-doctrinal, only 2 of the Ost support weapons are doctrine based 4 of the Soviet ones are doctrine based, but come in many doctrines, and 1/2 of OKW's support weapons are doctrinal.

OKW lacks the tools to use combined arms, and it has a fuckload of regular infantry.

Even our game has shown that you're able to replace your Army twice as fast as me due to manpower flood so here goes your complete argument and no, reducing MP by allowing OKW to build caches so they can spam tanks is terrible idea that would brake the game similar last year March development. I don't understand why you can't see this.

OKW float manpower because (my opinion):
-some units cost to little pop cap, therefore the mp gain is bigger
-Vehicles and tanks are expensive in MP and POP cap, OKW can fight and sometimes win without vehicles and tanks thus more MP
-Volks are a cheap meatshield so other units dont get hurt to much.

-Damnit i keep hearing that the okw has better or more efficient units im not really seeing this. So which units are so effective?

- Every faction can win without tanks safe for the usf. Why do you think that cas is so vilified?

- A good offensive can be a much better defence as death units dont do damage. 2 rifles can easily charge into 2 volks and win . try the same thing with regular grens and the only thing you accomplish is losing a lot of mp.

-Damnit i keep hearing that the okw has better or more efficient units im not really seeing this. So which units are so effective?

- Every faction can win without tanks safe for the usf. Why do you think that cas is so vilified?

- A good offensive can be a much better defence as death units dont do damage. 2 rifles can easily charge into 2 volks and win . try the same thing with regular grens and the only thing you accomplish is losing a lot of mp.

your post brings nothing here
-Better vehicles Flak Halftrack, Puma, Luchs, Jagdpanzer IV, Stuka. The problem is that "efectivnes" of units is determined by "it kills instantly" thus good, "it kills slowly" thus bad.
-And that is why USF (with all its problems) is the best designed faction, because they need their vehicles to survive the mid game other faction dont and that is BS.
-Dont understand you statement

OKW float manpower because (my opinion):
-some units cost to little pop cap, therefore the mp gain is bigger
-Vehicles and tanks are expensive in MP and POP cap, OKW can fight and sometimes win without vehicles and tanks thus more MP
-Volks are a cheap meatshield so other units dont get hurt to much.

of topic:
IF we bring back 100% munitions and fuel it will not increase the overall vehicle count of the OKW army but the numbers of KT and Jagdtigers in the end game. The main design problem with OKW is KT and Jagdtiger. Delete them both replace with something else or dont replace at all, give 100% fuel and maybe just maybe we will see a normal game without Panther spam (altough players tend to play the easiest tactics so less effort big Win).

The KT and JT can't be spammed because they both take up a huge amount of population capacity. 2 KT's is 48 pop cap, that's half your bloody popcap!

And OKW of all the factions has the highest popcap: Engineers, vehicles, light vehicles, and infantry. The issue is you won't be building normally anything but 1 of those things. And population capacity doesn't matter anyway if your not making anything new because you don't have the fuel or need to do so because the option is not open to you.

your post brings nothing here
-Better vehicles Flak Halftrack, Puma, Luchs, Jagdpanzer IV, Stuka. The problem is that "efectivnes" of units is determined by "it kills instantly" thus good, "it kills slowly" thus bad.
-And that is why USF (with all its problems) is the best designed faction, because they need their vehicles to survive the mid game other faction dont and that is BS.
-Dont understand you statement

Those vehicles are often better because they are more expensive. The JPIV is the least mobile TD in the game barring the super's, the Flak HT is worse than the American one, and the Puma much like you described with USF's vehicles has to be microed a lot to stick around without dying.

Even our game has shown that you're able to replace your Army twice as fast as me due to manpower flood so here goes your complete argument and no, reducing MP by allowing OKW to build caches so they can spam tanks is terrible idea that would brake the game similar last year March development. I don't understand why you can't see this.

I was floating MP because I could afford literally 1 Panther. Then I was at population cap, jesus christ dude did you not watch the replay? When you did your suicide charge I just got my Jadgtiger, until then I had 1 Panther facing your 2 KV8's and 2 IS2's.

How do you think OKW can have it's MP float fixed? Because if you reduce the income OKW early game won't work.

Give OKW the tools to stop float that every other faction has. If you want to raises prices and effectiveness because of that; fine.

Your whole logic is wrong. OKW floats because of too cheap/ well performing units - not because they have nothing to spend the manpower on.

Your whole logic is wrong. OKW floats because of too cheap/ well performing units - not because they have nothing to spend the manpower on.

Yes they have good mg, mortar, reliable AT guns, affordable medium tanks, etc. and their heavy tanks doesn't cost 2.5-3 IS2 to get. kappa

Question? 100% muni and 100% fuel income for OKW but no KT. Now what units would you use? And second question? Same scenario but no Panzershreck on Volks. What units would you use?

Your whole logic is wrong. OKW floats because of too cheap/ well performing units - not because they have nothing to spend the manpower on.

Soviets have cheap well preforming units, why do they not float MP? Shocks are good, guards are good, conscripts are good, Penals are good.

It might be; because they have lots of tools at their disposal to spend their MP on things other than just more infantry. Soviets have a plethora of support weapons and tanks they can acquire, OKW not so much.

Question? 100% muni and 100% fuel income for OKW but no KT. Now what units would you use? And second question? Same scenario but no Panzershreck on Volks. What units would you use?

What would be the issue with the KT being a thing with 100% fuel income, because it would still be the most expensive tank in the game by a large margin as in 150 fuel more than an IS2. People already use lots of things other than the KT, and or more combined forces.