soviet vs okw matchup

I think the only thing that works vs OKW are the shock troops commanders. Anything else and you will just get crushed and blobbed to death against obers and volks.

T-34/85s are good, kind of, but the panther and 3-5 schrecks will pretty much always penetrate them so they are very weak for their cost against OKW.

T34/85 weak. Lol.

T34/85 weak. Lol.

1600 HPs per Pair. Hardly weak. Just not AI monsters. Like everyone fascination with Easy 8s. Sure they are good AT and have decent AI but they are hardly Shrek deterrents. Personally I prefer the regular Sherman at least it does something REALLY WELL instead of a few roles just all right...

T34/85s are by far my favorite tank in the game if you went Guards motor. They are surprisingly mediocre without Mark Vehicle though. If more people played them without that ability people would be less impressed. But even without it they are great for cost. Closest you can get to a P4 AT wise out of an Allied Medium...

1600 HPs per Pair. Hardly weak. Just not AI monsters. Like everyone fascination with Easy 8s. Sure they are good AT and have decent AI but they are hardly Shrek deterrents. Personally I prefer the regular Sherman at least it does something REALLY WELL instead of a few roles just all right...

T34/85s are by far my favorite tank in the game if you went Guards motor. They are surprisingly mediocre without Mark Vehicle though. If more people played them without that ability people would be less impressed. But even without it they are great for cost. Closest you can get to a P4 AT wise out of an Allied Medium...

Its so retarded that I would need to call in pair of T-34/85s (than spam) + marked vehicle or IS-2 to take down one KT/Panther. This is exactly why nobody favors building T3 building what so ever (or JUST for the T-70). The medium armor play before WFA was flavorful, now is just awful thanks to OberShrek blobs.

I'm sorry, I knew truth allways upsets people, but couldn't abstain. So, sorry for upseting you.
And yeah, don't listen to CieZ, he doesn't know what he's talking about, why should we listen to best players in Coh2?

There are a lot of top players and streamers who disagree, Red Bear is one of those players

Its so retarded that I would need to call in pair of T-34/85s (than spam) + marked vehicle or IS-2 to take down one KT/Panther. This is exactly why nobody favors building T3 building what so ever (or JUST for the T-70). The medium armor play before WFA was flavorful, now is just awful thanks to OberShrek blobs.

Agreed 100%. All Tier build units need a boost and all call ins need a nerf so that they are equally viable. Total cost to acquire should be in that equation. KT being strong I get it. It costs a freaking fortune to call that beast in. But Tigers killing 3-4 T34/76s? Ehhhhhh not so much.

Or T34/85s shutting down Ostheer T3 completely? With no way for Ostheer to afford a Panther counter...not so good.

P4s could stand a decent enough chance against T34/85s if it wasnt for Mark Vehicle. Its like Giving Jacksons 800 HPs per at that point and being cheaper....

For the M3s: timing is everything.

Your flamer + m3 hits WELL before the first schreck, let alone the first 251 flak or puma. Even 1 schreck isn't enough to keep the car in check. The schreck can only be in one place, the car has a huge mobility advantage. Any lone squads are going to get picked off/harassed/bled, forcing you to play mainly around your lone schreck squad - and god forbid you lose it.

Every game that I open with M3s I get at least one squad wipe, generally more. Plus it gives CP and vet to either penals or your engineers. Vet 2 flamer penals are super hard for OKW to deal with because Oorah lets them soft-counter Obers while completely hard-countering Volks/Sturms.

I doubt I'd open this way in the current 1v1 meta, because the 251 flak is so strong against T1 openings, however I almost always open this way in 2v2s, and have my USF partner get Capt. Capt tech utterly dominates OKW Mech openers. In my opinion it is better to open 3-4 Cons into T2 as Soviet vs OKW in 1v1.

T3 and T4 are both quite strong against OKW, again because of the timing. If you have map control going T3 for a quick T70 or T34 can be extremely punishing as OKW doesn't have access to PaKs and Raketens just suck. Their Panther is going to hit long after your initial vehicle, and you'll have either ZiS guns or Jacksons to contend with the panther anyway. If you don't have map control, you skip the tech and fall back on your IS2s or T34/85s. T3 is going to be better in 1v1 than in a 2v2, because your USF partner is probably going to rush a Sherman anyways, there isn't much need for your T3 tank.

Shocks are super good against OKW because of the way all their weapon profiles work. You can close in on Volks extremely easily, you dominate Sturms, and with proper flanking you can do well against Obers. Of course you'll lose to the Obers if you try to run straight at them but with green cover/true sight/smoke it isn't that hard to get into close range, at which point you absolutely wreck them. Biggest issue for Shocks is the Luchs/251 Flak really. But neither of those units is scary for a Con/T2 opener.

Finally, OKW has literally no good answer for Is-2s - and tends to struggle against T34/85s. The Panther can keep the IS-2 at bay, but struggles to ever kill it, especially when you have to fear AT nades/mines/ZiS constantly. Meanwhile the IS-2 is running around 1 shotting squads, laughing at schrecks and getting to vet 2... at which point your Panther is absolutely gardened.

Not to mention, you literally cannot open with a forward med truck against Soviet. You will lose to 120s every time.

If you read my post more carefully (reading comprehension is important boys!) you'll see that I never called OKW a weak faction. In fact I clearly pointed out some issues where they could be toned down/redesigned. They're undeniably the stronger Axis faction but they're absolutely disadvantaged against Soviets in 1v1 and 2v2.

We can read Ciez, dont worry. Your whole argument is based on the assumption that OKW-players dont get a mate in 2v2s. But everyone, yes everyone, know that this isnt the case. OKW-players have a mate in 2v2s.

We can read Ciez, dont worry. Your whole argument is based on the assumption that OKW-players dont get a mate in 2v2s. But everyone, yes everyone, know that this isnt the case. OKW-players have a mate in 2v2s.

Then enlighten me as to how OKW can counter early flamer M3s?

Either you hug the few gren squads your Ost partner has, which gives up a MASSIVE amount of map control - mission accomplished. Or you have an OKW team mate and you have absolutely no counter to the M3. Mission accomplished.

T3 is certainly weaker in 2v2 than 1v1, which I account for.

Shocks are still great against double OKW and OKW/Wehr. Wehr can somewhat mitigate the weakness via the 222 or 251 with an MG42, but Shocks are still a phenomenal unit that will give OKW massive headaches. In the 251 flak meta their effectiveness can be mitigated, but never nullified in the way you can eventually shut down an M3 with it.

Still no cost-effective answer to the Is-2 even with Wehr in the picture. Elefant is your best bet, but highly map dependent.

Still can't open with forward med truck due to 120s. I guess double OKW could get a Stuka + a med truck but that's a soft counter at best honestly. It is easy to separate your 120s and live through the Stuka barrages until you kill the med truck.

So no, my argument is not based on the assumption that it is a 2v1 thank you very much. My argument is based on massive amounts of 2v2 gameplay with and against some of the best players the game has to offer. But thanks for your valuable feedback as usual. I'm sure everyone, yes everyone, appreciates it.

Still OKW ez mode

Again, how many maxims on top of that 400mp 120mm and your single Zis gun. I've problems opening this way since it lacks the best of both worlds, heavy agression and map presence with con spam or pure overlaying supression lines with sheer maxim spam.

Please note that I said 2v2 not 1v1 not 3v3. I also said that both players are doing the same thing with little difference.
After initial build of 1 con and 1 engie, things are going like this: you feel like you would build a cons squad? Perfect. Build a maxim. You feel like you would call a shocks unit? Great. Build a maxim. You feel like you would call an 120 mortar? Great, call it.
My partner does it even worse. He builds no cons squad. Just maxims and 1-2 mortars. This is the whole idea in fact.
As I said, executed properly and overwhelming, this strangels your enemy. No flanking space, no infantry movement. Everything moves gets pinned. That's the idea. Of course, not from the first second of the game. But pretty soon.

Again, as I said, the only proper answer I saw to that was an OKW/ostheer combo with 2 mortar ht and 1 or 2 wurframen. Fact is, alot o players in coh2 just don't know how to answer to things. They just do their usual pattern and if it's not working, the game is broken or the enemy faction is OP.

If you have a partner in 2v2 please try this with soviets and tell me how did you feel. We baptised this "strategy" (??!) "Maxim SPA" because from a moment in the game, makes you feel so confortable, like in a SPA hotel. And come on, don't tell me I invented the wheel because I am sure there are players that use this and make the best of it. In fact I saw it used against my partner and me. We took it and made it worst.

Please note that I said 2v2 not 1v1 not 3v3. I also said that both players are doing the same thing with little difference.
After initial build of 1 con and 1 engie, things are going like this: you feel like you would build a cons squad? Perfect. Build a maxim. You feel like you would call a shocks unit? Great. Build a maxim. You feel like you would call an 120 mortar? Great, call it.
My partner does it even worse. He builds no cons squad. Just maxims and 1-2 mortars. This is the whole idea in fact.
As I said, executed properly and overwhelming, this strangels your enemy. No flanking space, no infantry movement. Everything moves gets pinned. That's the idea. Of course, not from the first second of the game. But pretty soon.

Again, as I said, the only proper answer I saw to that was an OKW/ostheer combo with 2 mortar ht and 1 or 2 wurframen. Fact is, alot o players in coh2 just don't know how to answer to things. They just do their usual pattern and if it's not working, the game is broken or the enemy faction is OP.

If you have a partner in 2v2 please try this with soviets and tell me how did you feel. We baptised this "strategy" (??!) "Maxim SPA" because from a moment in the game, makes you feel so confortable, like in a SPA hotel. And come on, don't tell me I invented the wheel because I am sure there are players that use this and make the best of it. In fact I saw it used against my partner and me. We took it and made it worst.

Upload some replays dude, I want to see you executing this strategy.

Upload some replays dude, I want to see you executing this strategy.

He's right, he didn't invent the wheel; it's called maxim spam and it's been a thing for a long, long time. OKW Stuka counters it pretty hard and Ost rifle nades atm can punish it if you have the munis. It's generally considered cheese but it can work if your opponent doesn't read it fast enough or if you don't take enough map control to stop their vehicles.

Agreed 100%. All Tier build units need a boost and all call ins need a nerf so that they are equally viable. Total cost to acquire should be in that equation. KT being strong I get it. It costs a freaking fortune to call that beast in. But Tigers killing 3-4 T34/76s? Ehhhhhh not so much.

Or T34/85s shutting down Ostheer T3 completely? With no way for Ostheer to afford a Panther counter...not so good.

P4s could stand a decent enough chance against T34/85s if it wasnt for Mark Vehicle. Its like Giving Jacksons 800 HPs per at that point and being cheaper....

Sorry but PzIV can compete with T-34/85. Throw in Pak support and you're on top. Whenever I play Wermaht and see 85s on the field I don't feel like I have to go Panther or Tiger to be able to win and Vet2 PzIV is much better tank than T-34/85. The real strength of this commander is mark target and the fact they come in pairs which may catch you off guard.


I agree with the rest of your post. Never liked the way Soviets were designed. I don't mind Cons being weaker but the whole tech limitations and rubbish stock tanks forcing you to go into call ins. There is only handful useful commanders and if you decide not to pick from that pool you are going the game and that's for me is the biggest flaw and very bad game design. DLC ruining the game, because let's be honest, there is only one reason why they design CoH2 like that.

...
If you have a partner in 2v2 please try this with soviets and tell me how did you feel. We baptised this "strategy" (??!) "Maxim SPA" because from a moment in the game, makes you feel so confortable, like in a SPA hotel. And come on, don't tell me I invented the wheel because I am sure there are players that use this and make the best of it. In fact I saw it used against my partner and me. We took it and made it worst.

Flak HT + Stuka and my partner a fast P2. As i said, god forbid you are forced to a retreat, cause you are never gonna recover using just maxims.

I think i'm a broken record machine but: it's easier to deal with maxim spam rather than double sniper, double M3 flamer or con/rifle spam (done correctly). This at least coming from any AT which is at least top200 and even worst top50.

Level of concern:
-T2 on base. Relax, at most is maxim spam. Annoying but managable.
-No tech. Hmmm either they are really good or they'll suck. We'll see.
-T1. Damn, lets see what BS they throw at us.

Sorry but PzIV can compete with T-34/85. Throw in Pak support and you're on top. Whenever I play Wermaht and see 85s on the field I don't feel like I have to go Panther or Tiger to be able to win and Vet2 PzIV is much better tank than T-34/85. The real strength of this commander is mark target and the fact they come in pairs which may catch you off guard.

Sry but the entire point becomes invalid when you mentioned the pak. The pak is not free and if you need to support the p4 this extensively then it shows how much better the 85 is compared to the p4. the 85 is indeed soft enough for regular AT abilities to destroy it but with a high dps 25% more hp and penetration and a low scatter which allows it to murder infantry its without a doubt the best medium generalist tank in the game next to the e8.

Sry but the entire point becomes invalid when you mentioned the pak. The pak is not free and if you need to support the p4 this extensively then it shows how much better the 85 is compared to the p4. the 85 is indeed soft enough for regular AT abilities to destroy it but with a high dps 25% more hp and penetration and a low scatter which allows it to murder infantry its without a doubt the best medium generalist tank in the game next to the e8.

What if I told you that unsupported T34/85 dies just as easily? HP difference and AT effectiveness of sov and ost means the time to kill P4 and T34/85 are about equal.
Infantry with snare or AT weapons are support.
AT gun is a support.
Another tank is a support.

You always need to support your armor, your choice how you'll do it, but if you don't, expect some wrecked armor and it won't be opponents.

And what high DPS? P4 got better DPS then T34/85.

Upload some replays dude, I want to see you executing this strategy.

Oh how I wish to upload one. I would do it but I reinstalled my windows a weak ago. Nothing left, and latest games with my partner are invested exclusively in finding something cheesee with USF too, ( I doubt we will find anything though) or at least playable . If he agrees we will do it once again and post it. We are not the best players, rather middling, but we strongly believe in our combat intelect .

Flak HT + Stuka and my partner a fast P2. As i said, god forbid you are forced to a retreat, cause you are never gonna recover using just maxims.

You will get your flack HT allright, it's good, but thin. Would you believe me if I will say to you that a maxim shooting from flank can be a concern? Especially if a con squad is rushing in or a zis is targeting the Ht too. We saw flack HT attempts too, all failed. Stuka is verry dangerous, I agree. Panzer 2 also, but by the time you have P2, I have the counters . In most cases, I'll say. You are right with retreating. If the line collapses is verry difficult to comeback.

Sry but the entire point becomes invalid when you mentioned the pak. The pak is not free and if you need to support the p4 this extensively then it shows how much better the 85 is compared to the p4. the 85 is indeed soft enough for regular AT abilities to destroy it but with a high dps 25% more hp and penetration and a low scatter which allows it to murder infantry its without a doubt the best medium generalist tank in the game next to the e8.

PaK is optional. From my experience you don't need it provided you have equal number of tanks and you use them correctly.

Funny how Ciez is getting shouted down now that he's breaking the narrative that OKW is somehow unbeatable. Trust me, OKW and Soviets are just about on the same playing field with Soviets having the early/mid game advantage.