Panzer II Luchs

the luchs is fine, but t-70 and stuart should also have 400 hp.

I quite like luchs as it is. T70 and especially stuart could use some help though. But then again, it might be more of problem in the soviet and usf tier system than in the units themselves.

Sorry but what are you risking going for Luchs? Volks can secure you from any kind of medium armor.

Captain + At Gun should be enough to deal with light tank, don't you think? [...]

You're delaying your tanks significantly.


Also Captain and AT gun is more than enough to deal with Luchs.

You're delaying your tanks significantly.

Yes but you are not punished for that

Also Captain and AT gun is more than enough to deal with Luchs.

Please, go back to the first page and check replay

Most units are like: Shit! Pak hit me! Reverse, reverse! Shit, second hit..."
Luchs is not like that.

An Aussie I knew once described to me "the mental Monkey grip".....so I guess you two are familiar with that phrase? Don't go monkeying, please?

Sorry but I'm not familiar with this

.......................

Sorry but I'm not familiar with this

Briefly, off topic, my pal came from Perth. He told me that sometimes a monkey might go up a tree to find food, stick its paw into a hole in the tree to fumble for grub, and then find he could not withdraw the paw. In panic,the monkey's paw stayed in place in the hole, bcs the monkey did not stay cool and figure out how to withdraw its arm from the hole..... which eventually led to death

In UK, we might say,'when in a hole, stop digging', but it is not quite the same thing.

tl:dr 'Mental monkey grip' means being flexible, not making bad decisions in adversity, and not repeating the same actions, if they are not succeeding. It only drives you deeeper and deeper into the same crevice,from which there is no return. This can be particularly applicable to gameplay, but has some application on the forums also

Back to topic...

I think it's overperforming, but the real issue is with how underperforming Bazookas are, and with Soviets complete Lack of infantry based AT having to rely entirely on Ziss Guns which need to hit it 3 times to actually kill it and with their very slow rate of fire, and the likely hood to miss because of the small target size that often results in 4 shots being required, possibly more with lucky cits. There's no room for out play when your slow AT gun with a slow firing rate needs to fire 3-5 times to kill a super fast mobile tank that can easily Wipe the Ziss gun itself. The only real choice is to stall for the T-34 or Sherman and hope it hasn't wiped too many squads on retreat or cut off all your territory by the time you can actually get some a Tank to kill it. If the Soviet doesn't rush Tier3 in time, the only choice is to spam mines everywhere and hope that the Panzer 2 will drive over a mine in front of a Ziss gun so that after 4 shots on average it will kill it.

Comparing it to T-70's/Greyhounds/M20's/M15's/Stuarts not only do they generally die in two shots, they also are versing AT guns with a higher rate of fire, and with actual dependable Infantry based AT in the form of Shreks, and having to avoid Panzerfausts with long range if you're versing Wehrmacht. The other issue is it's hard to prepare for the Panzer 2, because you have no idea whether or not it will be a Panzer 2 or Double Obersoldaten rushed out. Preparing for the wrong unit can be very punishing as Obersoldaten also have such a massive impact.

Whilst the Panzer 2 is more of an investment, OKW are so good at stalling and camping without vehicles because of how strong Volks Shreks, Obers and forward bases are. It's very viable and common for an OKW to just not build any vehicles at all and go straight for King Tiger. I think the Panzer 2 needs a small nerf to either damage, health or target size. Even something like adding an aim-fire delay would help out Bazookas/PTRS. The impact it has and how much it changes the game is so much higher then that of any light/medium tank in the game, especially given how difficult it is to actually kill it without just relying on the OKW player making a big mistake and getting caught out of position. Bazookas are also really overdue for a buff, with their awful accuracy against small vehicles and not enough damage/penetration against bigger tanks.

just built you beloved b4 and 1shot it. problem solved

no, seriously. the luchs is a strong unit, but you give up a whole fucking lot to get it early on. no puma/flak ht and a delayed panther/3rd truck. if your not having a big advantage, you will only be able to use it for a couple of minutes before medium tanks hit the field. then there are mines/zooks/at nades

its okay. its the stuart that sucks and maybe the t70 could see himself buffed to 400hp too. not to sure about that though. it would be great vs OKW with its shreked up volks but would be a pain in the ass for 4 man ost paks, which then would need another shot before blowing it to hell.

btw if the luchs get 30-40 kills in the first 4-6 minutes, someone is doing something terribly wrong

This. At least if you are going to blob, arm them with a few Zookas.

Australian Magic it sounds like you have more of a problem with Volk Shrek blobs than the Luchs.

To address some points:

The T70 can kill Axis Halftracks so it is not too far-fetched that the Luchs can kill allied Halftracks.

As for the Stuart, while its AI does suffer, it does have 2 really, REALLY good AT abilities (Shell Shock + Point Blank Engine Shot), where as the Luchs and T70 need a good flank, a lot of time, and RNG to even damage medium and heavy tanks.

I could see the Luchs getting less HP(not a cost increase that would make it not worth getting) and the Stuart getting a HP or slight armor buff (so its AT abilities have more time to be utilized).

Using the Point Blank Engine shot is actually More punishing to the Stuart then Ramming with your T34. Even if you stun first due to its very very buggy nature and the Stuart having ADHD when it sees infantry.

The Stuart SHOULD be a rolling support tank but in reality its a total and complete waste of fuel that even in pro hands I have never seen it pay for itself.

Even then nades will be useless due to minimum range and lack of homing ability.
And I think animation is also broken so it's not that easy.

AT rifle nades do home. But they are inconsistent and buggy as hell.I have seen as much as a 6 second delay before it fired after meeting the requirements then watch the nade literally chase the Luchs halfway across Minsk Pocket.

Suppression and any time units HIT THE DIRT due to explosives or what have you will delay the riflenades from firing. This is a problem with Riflemen not the Luchs.

if the enemy get's a lusch before you get AT guns or tanks then buy bazookas and buy 2-4. if you can't afford that then there are other issues. bazookas are not great but they are more than enough to deal with a lusch as long as care is used. soviet t1 is screwed but that's a design issue with the faction, not the lusch.

I'm trying to figure out WTF the Stuart is for except as a heavier armour irritant with the disabling shot ability. It falls as an unsatisfactory halfway house between Luchs (which is ok) and T70 (which is OK). Make the stuart either an accomplished light armour killer or an accomplished infantry killer. At the moment it is neither.

The only way Stuart works versus Luchs is to disable-shot it so infantry with zooks can close in for a kill. Even so, Luchs will kill many inf before it dies.

This, like too much USF, is disproportionately micro-intensive (I just won a 2 v 2 where my Luchs was the star unit for me).

Srsly, the Luchs is in an ok spot. **The US roster of unit abilities isn't**

An early Luchs versus Stuart duel would be really good fun and a mid-game challenge, a bit like vCoH Puma / Greyhound decision-making.

Edit - fellow beta testers will remember when the Luchs came out at an *ahem* different and earlier phase of the game. The tier it's in is the tier it belongs.

Only 2 possibilities:

Luchs is fine, T-70 and Stuart are up.

Luchs is OP, T-70 and Stuart are fine.

Way to narrow your thinking. Stuart would be fine with 400 health and T-70 could use a minor cost decrease, but let us not forget the Recon Mode and Self Repair.

I dont really mind the luchs either, but...

The stuart is the light tank variant of the su-76. Its just not good at anything.

Way to narrow your thinking. Stuart would be fine with 400 health and T-70 could use a minor cost decrease, but let us not forget the Recon Mode and Self Repair.

Show me a single situation where self repair made any difference.
Year ago it could repair single faust damage, now its useless waste of ammo.

Both stuart and T-70 could get same survivability treatment Luchs got.
There is no reason why Luchs would be more durable then any of the two, it had LEAST armor and worst armament out of the three, yet here its cheapest and most efficient in its role.

I'm not saying it should be nerfed(before angry fanboys aka Jaigen will jump on me), I'm saying other two should be on its effectiveness and survivability levels-no reason why they should be below.

t-70 i haven't seen in so long i have no clue where it stands. the stuart needs better maingun dps.

I think the luchs is fine. Bazookas, the Stewart and rifleman at rifle nades really need some love though. Especially the Stewart. Seriously, what is the point of that thing. Trying to use the stun shot in tandem with at guns or captain isn't even worth it as the 70 fuel delays your Jackson or Sherman so much and the Stewart itself dies so quickly to everything before it can do any real damage.

I'm just gonna say it... The Stewart is worse than the su-76.

I think it should get a small health nerf.

Show me a single situation where self repair made any difference.
Year ago it could repair single faust damage, now its useless waste of ammo.

You can survive the 2nd pak shot while you are moving away.

-Luch is fine
-Zooks sucks.
-Riflemen AT nade has homing capabilities just like other AT nades. Problem is that nades in general still has issues.
-T70 is fine, maybe 5-10 less fuel or +20 hp. Repair ability needs to completely repair the tank.
-Stuart needs a lot of love. HP wise could easily go to 400hp, same as P2.

Can some stats be added to the OP? like the comparison between the luchs and t70/stuart. Some fanboys want to see the luchs from all kind of convenient perspectives to make it seem balanced "you delay a panther which is huuuge", ignoring the stats of the units which is the most important thing.
Some even argue that the t70 having self repair or the stuart having a insignificantly better anti-tank gun will make things balanced.

Can some stats be added to the OP? like the comparison between the luchs and t70/stuart. Some fanboys want to see the luchs from all kind of convenient perspectives to make it seem balanced "you delay a panther which is huuuge", ignoring the stats of the units which is the most important thing.
Some even argue that the t70 having self repair or the stuart having a insignificantly better anti-tank gun will make things balanced.

I did.
What makes Luchs so deadly is amount of shots per burst. Luchs, Flaktruck, Ostwind. All are deadly to inf cause of amount of shells. But Flaktruck is easy to handle, less mobile. Ostwind hits the field when you can have proper AT options. Luchs is in perfect spot to become killing machine. With 400 hp and shots per burst it becomes most deadly inf killer in fact. It's hard to get such many kills even with King Tiger. Not to mention that t34/76 will never get so many kills.