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Panzer II Luchs

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Woschte
17 Dec 2014, 16:12 PM
#21
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jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2014, 15:16 PMAustralian Magic


So it's fine that hard counter for Luchs is Sherman ot T34 but for Stuart or T70 all you need are Volks?



The Volk-Blob-Meta is a problem almost everyone is aware of, and Zooks could be better, i agree with you.

But these points have almost nothing to do with the performance of the luchs, as your initial post was, so please stay to the topic and discuss balance options of the luchs, not of other circumstances.

Ontopic: I agree with steel that 400 hp health are a bit too much, but personally i favor the T 70 over the Luchs, due to the ability the T 70 gets. I really hate the fact (both units), that they rape retreating squads.

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2014, 14:27 PMAustralian Magic

The worst is OKW vs USF when USF player went for Lieutenant.


Thats not a problem of the "OP-nes" of the Luchs, its rather a problem of reading your opponent. If the OKW has constanly good map control, you have to consider an early enemy luchs, going LT is a mistake then. If you went LT beforehand, make sure to deny OKW mapcontrol.
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broodwarjc
17 Dec 2014, 16:12 PM
#22
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Australian Magic it sounds like you have more of a problem with Volk Shrek blobs than the Luchs.

To address some points:

The T70 can kill Axis Halftracks so it is not too far-fetched that the Luchs can kill allied Halftracks.

As for the Stuart, while its AI does suffer, it does have 2 really, REALLY good AT abilities (Shell Shock + Point Blank Engine Shot), where as the Luchs and T70 need a good flank, a lot of time, and RNG to even damage medium and heavy tanks.

I could see the Luchs getting less HP(not a cost increase that would make it not worth getting) and the Stuart getting a HP or slight armor buff (so its AT abilities have more time to be utilized).
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Australian Magic
17 Dec 2014, 16:17 PM
#23
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jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2014, 16:12 PMbroodwarjc
Australian Magic it sounds like you have more of a problem with Volk Shrek blobs than the Luchs.

To address some points:

The T70 can kill Axis Halftracks so it is not too far-fetched that the Luchs can kill allied Halftracks.

As for the Stuart, while its AI does suffer, it does have 2 really, REALLY good AT abilities (Shell Shock + Point Blank Engine Shot), where as the Luchs and T70 need a good flank, a lot of time, and RNG to even damage medium and heavy tanks.

I could see the Luchs getting less HP(not a cost increase that would make it not worth getting) and the Stuart getting a HP or slight armor buff (so its AT abilities have more time to be utilized).


In fact I don't have problems with Luchs or Schrecks blob most of the time. Im just rushing for Sherman and paras to deny Luchs or Volks. Yet I see a lot of replays where Luchs is raping enemy, sitting in the enemy's base, wiping everything. On the other hand I did not see T70, Stuart or AA halftruck running around whole map, getting 30 kills in 5mins and avoiding AT gun so easily. Yes, sometimes T70 or AA halftruck can be deadly but it's like 1/10. Luchs is deadly 6/10 cases in my opinion.

I can get 40 kills with Sherman but I need around 15-25mins to do that. Sometimes even more. Luchs can do that in 5-10mins.
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BeltFedWombat
17 Dec 2014, 16:20 PM
#24
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jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2014, 14:27 PMAustralian Magic
Simple question, don't you think it's little OP?


Personally, no.


The worst is OKW vs USF when USF player went for Lieutenant. Even with dropped AT gun with Airborne, Luchs can just wipe everything cause of pudding Rifle AT nades.


That's possibly a fair point Australian, but shouldn't you sort of anticipate the Luchs? After all, it takes a fair bit of building to get there and there is plenty of time to plan a counter. The big fuckoff gun truck is a clue, for starters. Even with Lt. you can dump a utility car mine *and* have an early zook.

When compared to Stuart or T70, Luchs is deadly for infantry.
That is it's primary and possibly only role. I made one last night in a 4 v 4 and came face-to-face with a T34. You can imagine how that ended.


Luchs is very low risk unit and really, really high reward.


I have to take you back to my earlier point - look at the fuel cost and building commitment to get the Luchs - you are forsaking a lot of other stuff. It's medium risk / high reward. So maybe a tiny nerf to ROF perhaps but even that I'm leery about.

I'm also not convinced when points are illustrated by showing videos of elite players. 90% of us don't play at that level and never will. Elite players are *meant* to do crazy cool things with units, it's what they do. Too much of this game is already balanced for 2% of players who think they should call the shots.

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Australian Magic
17 Dec 2014, 16:26 PM
#25
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jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2014, 16:20 PMBeltFedWombat

....



About elite players.
Have you seen Luchs with 30-40+kills used by no-pro? I have. Have you seen T70 or AA halftruck with such many kill used by no-pro? I havent.

Compare Sturat and Luchs cost. It's very in favour for Luchs.
Early zook is useless since Luchs has 400hp and can wipe squad befofe it can shoot.
And M20 mines are just lottery. It's hard to foresee where Luchs will strike.
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kamk
17 Dec 2014, 16:36 PM
#26
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jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2014, 16:17 PMAustralian Magic
...
I can get 40 kills with Sherman but I need around 15-25mins to do that. Sometimes even more. Luchs can do that in 5-10mins.

So first it was 30-40 in 6 minutes, then 20-40 in 10, now it's 40 in 5-10.
Make up your mind :D

I just had a Luchs, and sadly MM gave me a newbie bash. And in rougly 5,5 minutes of base sieging it obtained 29 kills. I've had more before, it's possible, but that's the deal of a light AI vehicle - it can also backfire quickly if the enemy counters it properly.

As Heartless already mentioned the T70 can be also a serious threat, and let's not forget about Recon mode. And by the time the Luchs hits the field, you already will have gathered approx 200 fuel. Even if you exclude some upgrade fuel, it's pretty easy to yield a medium tank at the same time, which will wreck the cute little AI cat rather quickly.

Would be nice to have some super slight HP buff for the T70, so it doesn't die to two PAK40 shots, but that's it pretty much (in my opinion).



Edit & P.S.: if a Luchs wipes your Captain or Zook squad before they can shoot, then you're doing something wrong.
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Katitof
17 Dec 2014, 16:48 PM
#27
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Only 2 possibilities:

Luchs is fine, T-70 and Stuart are up.

Luchs is OP, T-70 and Stuart are fine.

This thing is incomparably more effective and survivable then either of allies lights.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Australian Magic
17 Dec 2014, 16:50 PM
#28
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jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2014, 16:36 PMkamk

So first it was 30-40 in 6 minutes, then 20-40 in 10, now it's 40 in 5-10.
Make up your mind :D

I just had a Luchs, and sadly MM gave me a newbie bash. And in rougly 5,5 minutes of base sieging it obtained 29 kills. I've had more before, it's possible, but that's the deal of a light AI vehicle - it can also backfire quickly if the enemy counters it properly.

As Heartless already mentioned the T70 can be also a serious threat, and let's not forget about Recon mode. And by the time the Luchs hits the field, you already will have gathered approx 200 fuel. Even if you exclude some upgrade fuel, it's pretty easy to yield a medium tank at the same time, which will wreck the cute little AI cat rather quickly.

Would be nice to have some super slight HP buff for the T70, so it doesn't die to two PAK40 shots, but that's it pretty much (in my opinion).



Edit & P.S.: if a Luchs wipes your Captain or Zook squad before they can shoot, then you're doing something wrong.


You know, it's just average. Sometimes you can get 20kills in 10mins and sometimes 30 in 6mins.

What's more, Luchs will always hit the field faster than medium tanks, especially if you go for t2 and convert muni to fuel.

Luchs is so fast and mobile so if you see Captain behind green cover you just go around and wipe. No need to face Captin with cover buff.

Focusig on Luchs will let you open for Obers or Falsch while OKW will always go for Schrecks so it does not matter if USF/SU will go for Stuart/T70.

Point is, OKW can counter T70 or Stuart without any problems. Even OST has Pak and fausts to counter light tanks. Soviets can rely on AT nades and ZiS but USF? At nades with minimun range and without homing ability are useless vs Luchs.
Bazookas? You need 5 hits to kill Luchs with it.
Sherman? Even if rushed, it hits the field around 12min.
US Forces are fucked by Luchs most of the time.
Soviets have better option but keep in mind that Falsch or Obers will wipe Cons and ZiS while dealing with Luchs.
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Jaigen
17 Dec 2014, 16:50 PM
#29
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Posts: 1130

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2014, 16:36 PMkamk


Edit & P.S.: if a Luchs wipes your Captain or Zook squad before they can shoot, then you're doing something wrong.


That just happened. but i dont doubt Cruzz makes regular goat sacrifices to the rng god . The captain was clumped and in the open and the first burst took 2/3 of the hp.
horrida flamma bella
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Unshavenbackman
17 Dec 2014, 16:51 PM
#30
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Posts: 680

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2014, 14:27 PMAustralian Magic

I remember time when t70 was wiping everything behind lines and what? Nerf.


Relic and the beta-group is famous for their tactical e-sports commitment to rts. I think a new commader: okw industry, could be on the cards.
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WingZero
17 Dec 2014, 16:58 PM
#31
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Posts: 1484

I like it how Luchs can take a Jackson shot with more than half of HP left, mean while Stuart and T-70 are down to 10% health from P4s.












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BeltFedWombat
17 Dec 2014, 16:59 PM
#32
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I think were I can agree with you is the lacklustre early AT option for USF. The Vet 1 AT gren ability should be slightly chunkier and USF should be able to field a reasonable zook at the same time as the Luchs.

Problem ain't the Luchs, it's USF core design.

Bring back sticky bombs.
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Australian Magic
17 Dec 2014, 17:04 PM
#33
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jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2014, 16:59 PMBeltFedWombat
I think were I can agree with you is the lacklustre early AT option for USF. The Vet 1 AT gren ability should be slightly chunkier and USF should be able to field a reasonable zook at the same time as the Luchs.

Problem ain't the Luchs, it's USF core design.

Bring back sticky bombs.


I agree with you but when last time Relic has changed something about faction design?:foreveralone:
(I dont see OKW muni income as design change)
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BeltFedWombat
17 Dec 2014, 17:06 PM
#34
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They could easily lower the rifle nade to Vet zero in return for a slight muni cost.
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Australian Magic
17 Dec 2014, 17:09 PM
#35
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jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2014, 17:06 PMBeltFedWombat
They could easily lower the rifle nade to Vet zero in return for a slight muni cost.


Even then nades will be useless due to minimum range and lack of homing ability.
And I think animation is also broken so it's not that easy.
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gokkel
17 Dec 2014, 17:11 PM
#36
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Posts: 542

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2014, 16:58 PMWingZero
I like it how Luchs can take a Jackson shot with more than half of HP left, mean while Stuart and T-70 are down to 10% health from P4s.


This is already factually wrong.
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sherlock
17 Dec 2014, 17:43 PM
#37
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jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2014, 17:11 PMgokkel


This is already factually wrong.


The P2 has 400 hp the damage of the jackson is 240, IF and that's a big if it hits considering the P2's target size (smaller than the stuart because... (?) ).
Help test the USF teching adjustment mod: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1553135357
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gokkel
17 Dec 2014, 17:47 PM
#38
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Posts: 542

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2014, 17:43 PMsherlock


The P2 has 400 hp the damage of the jackson is 240, IF and that's a big if it hits considering the P2's target size (smaller than the stuart because... (?) ).

Anyways the remaining health is 160 not exactly half as stated but also not that far from the truth.


If someone claims that 160/400 is "more than half left" and 160/320 is "10%" then this is plain bullshit, no need to defend him.
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sherlock
17 Dec 2014, 17:51 PM
#39
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jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2014, 17:47 PMgokkel


If someone claims that 160/400 is "more than half left" and 160/320 is "10%" then this is plain bullshit, no need to defend him.


I'm not defending anyone, I deliver the exact stats.
Help test the USF teching adjustment mod: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1553135357
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QueenRatchet123
17 Dec 2014, 17:54 PM
#40
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Permanently Banned
y does no one use zooks as usf. It punished okw HARD

Luchs cant do anything if u have double zooks on every other squad. same goes for puma. since luchs is mostly only good vs infantry. if ur infantry hard counter it. OKW player has wasted his fuel

Zooks also handle okw tier buildings very well.
jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2015, 14:01 PMJohnnyB

There is no recording in all WW2 history of a piat actually knocking off a vehicle. Yes, it was THAT bad.
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