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russian armor

Kubel counterplay

18 Sep 2014, 19:08 PM
#61
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



it will definitely nerfed I guess, but it takes time to test some options. Makes no sense to increase the fuel cost to 5-10, when the OKW starts already with 40 fuel.


Actually it does, delaying puma and flak HT, increasing window of opportunity for allies to use light armor against it and most of all, it will put a decision on OKW players-early trucks or early vehicles.

Stat changes are not the only way to balance a unit.
18 Sep 2014, 20:13 PM
#62
avatar of Trainzz

Posts: 332 | Subs: 1

The question for me is, why do factions have to rely so heavily on early light vehicles, instead of using infantry exclusively.

You can always add a jeep or a bike like it was in CoH1, a cheap support unit that is really strong if microed correctly, but on its own it does not do anything.

But I guess it's too late for that.
18 Sep 2014, 20:32 PM
#63
avatar of Spanky
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1820 | Subs: 2

I've had more success with 4RE opening into 2-3 fighting positions. It delays rifles, but it will help you quickly grab bigger portion of the map, because the kubel can't chase all the RE's around. build a quick forward fighting position and wait for the first engagement, RE inside the FP will hold out quite long so you can ninja cap around and you won't loose that much early.

I'm sure this is the best thing out there vs the kubel.
18 Sep 2014, 21:15 PM
#64
avatar of JHeartless

Posts: 1637

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2014, 20:32 PMSpanky
I've had more success with 4RE opening into 2-3 fighting positions. It delays rifles, but it will help you quickly grab bigger portion of the map, because the kubel can't chase all the RE's around. build a quick forward fighting position and wait for the first engagement, RE inside the FP will hold out quite long so you can ninja cap around and you won't loose that much early.

I'm sure this is the best thing out there vs the kubel.


I was actually trying the exact same thing today in Semoisky. And there was some sort of bug where my REs wouldnt fire the riflenade out of the fighting position because I capped the point next to it with a Muni Point. Even though they could fire out and be fired upon.

Overall I couldnt pull it off because of this bug on that game and ended up getting hosed. Good to know I was on the right track.

18 Sep 2014, 21:38 PM
#65
avatar of Interloper

Posts: 93

I go with a 2 re and 2 rifle build with building a fuel cache and getting 2 jeeps with the mech cdr. Using them and rifles to push out aggressively and using refit ability to crank out a quick Stuart and at gun.
19 Sep 2014, 01:58 AM
#66
avatar of GenMe

Posts: 294

Yeah, something needs to change in the OKW-US match-up, Kubel is very strong there. On cut-off maps it's a little beast.

But vs Soviets I don't think so. Just before the patch the Soviet-OKW match was very bad for OKW. Flamer M3, snipers trololol. Did just a bit more range on the Kubel change that completely? I don't think so.

M3 is on a fairly even footing, Maxim can't be suppressed + does decent damage and ATG takes 90% of its health.

If they move the damn sov M3 out of T1, I'd say nerf dat Kubel. But while sovs have such a powerful early game vehicle, I think the opposing side should too.




Sov's have it just as bad as Amis against Kubel, maxims are irrelevant as they are un-usable this patch as they cant retreat, also you cant call the clown car a decent counter as it cant suppress the support inf while the Kubel can, soviets cant be expected to have to get tier 1 and 2 to counter a Kubel.
19 Sep 2014, 05:48 AM
#67
avatar of TheChosenJuan

Posts: 19

THIS:

Actually it does, delaying puma and flak HT, increasing window of opportunity for allies to use light armor against it and most of all, it will put a decision on OKW players-early trucks or early vehicles.

Stat changes are not the only way to balance a unit.


The only reason I am not having a good time vs kubels is because by the time I have m20, the enemy is having a fast Puma and Jaegers.
19 Sep 2014, 06:11 AM
#68
avatar of Abdul

Posts: 896

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2014, 20:13 PMTrainzz
The question for me is, why do factions have to rely so heavily on early light vehicles, instead of using infantry exclusively.

You can always add a jeep or a bike like it was in CoH1, a cheap support unit that is really strong if microed correctly, but on its own it does not do anything.

But I guess it's too late for that.


Bad game design, and even the jeep/bike in coh1 were kind of stupid because of the ability to push and to go past base defenses and kill the first sniper the second he spawned for example.
19 Sep 2014, 06:15 AM
#69
avatar of Abdul

Posts: 896

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Sep 2014, 20:32 PMSpanky
I've had more success with 4RE opening into 2-3 fighting positions. It delays rifles, but it will help you quickly grab bigger portion of the map, because the kubel can't chase all the RE's around. build a quick forward fighting position and wait for the first engagement, RE inside the FP will hold out quite long so you can ninja cap around and you won't loose that much early.

I'm sure this is the best thing out there vs the kubel.


What commander you use with this start? You know without access to the lmg those RE units are going to be useless and upgrading them with Bars won't do much.

If you have the rifles commander you can do with 2 RE and relay on vetted rifles to AT nade the kubel. It's still very hard to pull off because of the kubels insane acceleration, but its a better option.
19 Sep 2014, 08:22 AM
#70
avatar of Spanky
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1820 | Subs: 2

I use the Paratrooper support doctrine, it has the M8 in it. I've managed to stall enough in my games to get captain out, the extra bazooka firepower + m8 is great imo. The m8 excells in oneshotting squads if clumped together. that's 50 muni for a 235 mp squads, i've even had the luck to whipe a whole obers squad.

I wouldn't call RE's useless, they are so cheap to reinforce and if they get vet2 they are great to steal abandoned weapons or help with fast repairs.

@JHeartless: i haven't encountered a bug like that before, really strange. That need's testing.
19 Sep 2014, 09:07 AM
#71
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

Guys, after I studied enough kubel play and kubel counterplay I have to admit I was a little wrong about kubel, it needs rework. Especially for USF kubel it's a problem, because Riflemen are more expensive and you can't spam enough of them to flank it early enough in order not to be cornered from startgame.
So I think its arc of fire should be reduced (narrowed) a little and its health must be nerfed for just a bit in order to take enough damage when flanked.
The main reason for which it needs these nerfs is because it doesn't require so much micro as I thought it does. In fact, in startgame, and american player must micro more than the okw player does.


P.S. This is serious, I'm not trolling, people can make mistakes.
19 Sep 2014, 09:33 AM
#72
avatar of drChengele
Patrion 14

Posts: 640 | Subs: 1

A 10 fuel price is needed.

Apart from slowing down the Puma tech path, if up against two Kubels the US can then perform grenade research without the fear of being hopelessly outteched.
19 Sep 2014, 10:29 AM
#73
avatar of jajaja

Posts: 13

10 fuel is silly, it won't ever be build then.

I'd say:

Damage reduction
Acceleration reduction
Less stupid pathing
19 Sep 2014, 11:32 AM
#74
avatar of Kamfrenchie

Posts: 41

we could also consider increasing the delay before the thing starts suppressing.

Now let's just hope Relic doesn't do all of it and nerf it to uselessness.
19 Sep 2014, 11:47 AM
#75
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1



Now let's just hope Relic doesn't do all of it and nerf it to uselessness.


That's the problem actually, they usually do this. Acceleration nerf won't do. 10 fuel price no way, we want this unit still be built in the game. I don't think the damage is the problem, suppression is, but if it will take to long to supress, its efficiency will become questionable again. Let's just lower health a bit (I mean if hit by an AT grenade at 80% health it should explode). Also the arc of fire is to wide, we don't want to put him in a place and deny all passage there, that's why it needs a narrower arc of fire. These two would be enough I guess.
19 Sep 2014, 12:21 PM
#76
avatar of jajaja

Posts: 13

I think the damage is at least part of the real problem.

Right now, if you try to flank it and it gets away, it usually kill 3 or 4 models of your 3 riflemen.
By the time you finally manage to kill it, it easily paid for itself.

Isn't it supposed to be a suppression platform?
Right now its doing way too much damage on the move.
19 Sep 2014, 12:29 PM
#77
avatar of gary.giles71

Posts: 165

Cheers JohnnyB ! Cool to see someone admit to a change of mind.
19 Sep 2014, 15:41 PM
#78
avatar of butterfingers158

Posts: 239

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Sep 2014, 12:21 PMjajaja
I think the damage is at least part of the real problem.

Right now, if you try to flank it and it gets away, it usually kill 3 or 4 models of your 3 riflemen.
By the time you finally manage to kill it, it easily paid for itself.

Isn't it supposed to be a suppression platform?
Right now its doing way too much damage on the move.


I think they upped the damage to help counter sniper spam from Soviets
19 Sep 2014, 17:24 PM
#79
avatar of Enkidu

Posts: 351

Cheers JohnnyB ! Cool to see someone admit to a change of mind.

Yeah Johnny, that's pretty cool. I too changed my mind and think it's too strong but I really don't want them to nerf the handling. If anything, either the damage or suppression needs to be toned down.
19 Sep 2014, 17:29 PM
#80
avatar of drChengele
Patrion 14

Posts: 640 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Sep 2014, 11:47 AMJohnnyB
10 fuel price no way, we want this unit still be built in the game.
I will gladly pay 10 fuel for the Kubel as it is now. If you think it won't be built because of that, you are mistaken. It is squishy but worth it as it is now. In fact, I would probably consider building a Kubel on occasion vs the US, as it is now, even if it was 15 fuel (remember, there is a solid chance you get 5 of that back when it is destroyed).

I think they upped the damage to help counter sniper spam from Soviets
Bingo. The burst duration on the move is another indicator of this.

Survivable 2-man Soviet sniper teams are like cancer - their design has wide-reaching consequences that sends ripples through the rest of the game. Now because of Soviet snipers the US players are having a hard time against Kubels. But that is for a different thread.
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