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Are kubelwagens OP

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22 Sep 2014, 16:46 PM
#321
avatar of Spanky
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1820 | Subs: 2

I have plenty in the replay section.
22 Sep 2014, 16:50 PM
#322
avatar of Abdul

Posts: 896

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2014, 16:46 PMSpanky
I have plenty in the replay section.


Well, the one I saw was not an applicable example. Do you have one replay specifically showing a good okw player using kubel as his first unit on an open map?
22 Sep 2014, 18:38 PM
#323
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2014, 06:49 AMJaigen


Oh smell the hypocrisy and double standards. The kubel is a maxim on wheels and thus it has the same counters: light vehicles or overwhelming firepower. the soviets and the usf has access to light vehicles then the ostheer . their is no excuse for it to completely fuck up your early game.
most usf and soviet players however completely overextend themselves and have not learned to be defensive while you pump out the adequate counters.


Oh, but having wheels is what matters all along. And if you mention that USF has access to light vehicles you are just ignorant that you are either going for a M20 (which gets heavy countered by T3) or a AA HT (which gets countered by a Puma) and that takes time. Meanwhile you are behind on the first 5 mins.

I'm really interested to see at what level you are playing to say "kubels" are not OP. I have to say i mostly like it has some power, but it shouldn't survive an AT gun shot, for example.

@Abdul: you should just veto Langres or Crossing on this patch as Americans.
22 Sep 2014, 19:10 PM
#324
avatar of wayward516

Posts: 229

They are not OP, they are glass vehicles that get absolutely murdered if you don't micro. Their pathing is still horrible for the most part, Maxims tear through them, as does any small arms fire, let conscripts get close and say hello to their devastating AT nades.

Germans have had to put up with Maxim spam with mortar support, and fighting position nades/mgs...now allies have to put up with kubels which are only viable early game.


Anecdotally, as USF, the only thing that seems to kill them early game is an unopposed flank with Assault Engineers. Flanking with 2 rifles doesn't do enough damage to more than make the Kubel back up and keep shooting. As USF I have literally no idea how to deal with a dedicated assault force of Kubel(s), Sturmpio and Volks. I've taken to hiding in buildings and attempting to build fighting positions at key locations in the early game, but that can be as much a liability as an advantage. Any advice for USF would be much appreciated.
23 Sep 2014, 04:16 AM
#325
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 593

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2014, 17:22 PMAbdul
Below are the kubel key stats in comparison to other early light vehicles. Figures in red highlight the balance problem with this unit.




Looking at those numbers in the order listed above there are several problems including:

Target size (10) is too small, which makes hitting kubel with an AT gun at far distance (accuracy .04 for zis) hard. You have basically 40% chance of hitting kubel. And getting closer doesn't improve your chances so much. You have to be right next to it to get a 60% chance of hitting it. This unit needs at least a 15 target size to make at guns effective against it.

Acceleration at 4.5 is the fastest that I know of in the game and only the OKW puma has this kind of acceleration. In comparison all other early light vehicles have around 2 acceleration (less than half). This is the main reason why the kubel can avoid counters effectively and get out of flanks so easily. This number need to be brought down to be inline with other light vehicles.

Sight at 50 is the same for all of those units but given the kubel is essentially a mobile mg it should not have that much sight. This enables it to go solo, hunting unsuspecting units and suppressing them before they know its there (infantry have 35 sight), and this is exactly whats happening now. Sight should be brought down to at least 35 like all mgs and even I encourage bringing down all support weapons sight to 30, so that they can never go solo and be effective like the maxim is so well know to be.

Damage
at 17.4 near and 4.8 far is insane in this unit, and while one can argue that suppressed units take less damage so its not effective as it appears it has almost double the dps of an m3 at near range. Even with less armor the kubel can take on the m3 which requires teching and cost fuel. Damage or penetration need to be reduced on this vehicle.

Penetration is actually higher than the m3 which brings the question why a mobile mg has this kind of pentarion. If damage is left the same this figure needs to go down so that the kubel can't counter everything including its own counters like the m3 and dodge truck.

Looking at those stats and experiencing it in game, the kubel was tuned into a super unit that requires no teching and costs no fuel and can take on all early counters and get out of most flanks with ease. Its combination of acceleration, sight, damage, penetration, and the fact that it requires no setup time like all other mgs and suppresses units before the first burst is complete makes the kubel the perfect example of an over powered unit. I just wonder how long it will take relic to fix this mess. Judging by the last mess (katyusha) it might be soon hopefully.

edit: This unit requires a fuel cost to minimize spamming and or a performance reduction to make it function properly in the early game.



this guy knows what hes talking about
23 Sep 2014, 05:23 AM
#326
avatar of Abdul

Posts: 896


this guy knows what hes talking about


Thx, and those are the balance suggestions I made: http://www.coh2.org/topic/23974/are-kubelwagens-op/page/8#post_id215963

To summarize, first step relic should add a 10fu cost and increase the target size from 10 to 15. This way people think twice before spamming it and if they do, they delay their teching.

Second step they have 2 paths to balance it. Either reducing its sight and acceleration so it can't go solo and get out of flanks so easily or they can rework its damage/penetration/suppression. The first step however is absolutely and urgently needed.


edit: they can also make it take a little more time to build just to give the usf player enough time to build his first emplacement
23 Sep 2014, 05:28 AM
#327
avatar of What Doth Life?!
Patrion 27

Posts: 1664

I feel like reverting the Soviet M3 and M5 penetration to what they were before they got nerfed (because they were too good vs Kubel specifically) that could help Soviets but US need Bazookas to be made better to deal with Kubel I think.
23 Sep 2014, 07:10 AM
#328
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130



Oh, but having wheels is what matters all along. And if you mention that USF has access to light vehicles you are just ignorant that you are either going for a M20 (which gets heavy countered by T3) or a AA HT (which gets countered by a Puma) and that takes time. Meanwhile you are behind on the first 5 mins.


WTF are you doing with that m20? you dont shoot the puma with it you lure it over a m20 mine or use the zook.
23 Sep 2014, 10:47 AM
#329
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2014, 07:10 AMJaigen


WTF are you doing with that m20? you dont shoot the puma with it you lure it over a m20 mine or use the zook.


Again, at what level are you playing?
This is the same excuse some people wanted to give when you played against min5 T70. Just build a Teller mine and pray for him to hit it.
23 Sep 2014, 11:30 AM
#330
avatar of Captain_Frog

Posts: 248

As US use smoke, purchase it after your third (or second) Rifle squad.

As Soviets build an M3 or wait for Guards/Zis.
23 Sep 2014, 12:16 PM
#331
avatar of Steiner500

Posts: 183

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGdMMLS99i8

Look the first 2-6 minutes. its the nightmare for allies/for beginners and so
25 Sep 2014, 18:37 PM
#332
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Kubel's stats are now it's previous incarnate, the only difference is it kept the range and arc of the new one.
25 Sep 2014, 19:31 PM
#333
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130

Kubel's stats are now it's previous incarnate, the only difference is it kept the range and arc of the new one.


in short nothing changed i didnt buy the kubel for dps back then or now. suppression is still their
25 Sep 2014, 19:38 PM
#334
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Sep 2014, 19:31 PMJaigen
in short nothing changed i didnt buy the kubel for dps back then or now. suppression is still their


Kubel is OKW's suppression, no shit it's still there.
25 Sep 2014, 20:02 PM
#335
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130



Kubel is OKW's suppression, no shit it's still there.


and thats why people where complaining about it
25 Sep 2014, 20:33 PM
#336
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Sep 2014, 20:02 PMJaigen


and thats why people where complaining about it


Nothing really changed, USF has a slighly better survivability vs a fast Kubel. Not sure it's going to change anything on bigger games.

First game vs a OKW, fast Kubel push and it is still effective... We're not going to see less of them.
http://www.coh2.org/replay/24679/pre-patch-25-sept2014-usf-vs-early-kubel

Edit: it is not pre-patch but post-past, I made a typo :P
26 Sep 2014, 04:45 AM
#337
avatar of van Voort
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3552 | Subs: 2

I was building 2 of the things before it was cool

Now I'm using 3
26 Sep 2014, 05:36 AM
#338
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Sep 2014, 20:33 PMEsxile



First game vs a OKW, fast Kubel push and it is still effective...


And what did you expect? A nerfing to the ground to make it useless?
26 Sep 2014, 09:40 AM
#339
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2014, 05:36 AMJohnnyB


And what did you expect? A nerfing to the ground to make it useless?


A delay of 120s for the first truck to arrive ?
26 Sep 2014, 09:52 AM
#340
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1



A delay of 120s for the first truck to arrive ?


What does this have to do with the kubel?! You build kubel from T0:huhsign:
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