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Your opinion on "Germans" being renamed "Wehrmacht"?

23 Jun 2014, 12:48 PM
#21
avatar of Twister
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Ohh wow your right. I think I subconsciously never realised now they are completely referred to as German in-game. I did recognize that Relic did at some point in time change the automatch listing to be as 'Germans' instead of 'Ostheer', however I didn't realise everything else in-game was changed as well.

I have always called the eastern front Axis as Ostheer on my stream!

I am 100% positive they used to be listed as Ostheer in-game at some point in time. Otherwise, I am going bat shit insane! :O


Afaik they were actually listed as Ostheer at the beginning, but I don't know when they changed that :( But I wouldn't mind referring to them as Wehrmacht, even though it doesn't make all that much sense as Ami and others have said.
23 Jun 2014, 12:50 PM
#22
avatar of AmiPolizeiFunk
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Well, I really appreciate the posts here. You guys nailed it on the head.

I have a feeling this is gonna bug me for years to come.

Relic ..... :(
23 Jun 2014, 12:55 PM
#23
avatar of IpKaiFung
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I'm still going to call them ostheer to be honest
23 Jun 2014, 12:56 PM
#24
avatar of GeneralCH

Posts: 419

I would like, that the Army of the USSR would not be called "soviets", but using the correct term "red army". The term changed to soviet army after WW2. Otherwise you would need to call the Wehrmacht the nazi army, which then would become quite a rant...
23 Jun 2014, 13:05 PM
#25
avatar of Thunderhun

Posts: 1617

I wonder if they add any more german army, what would be their name.
23 Jun 2014, 13:08 PM
#26
avatar of gyapper

Posts: 8

Okw doesn't make any sense and is confusing since it actually means Oberkommando der Wehrmacht.

I'd love if they changed the faction names to Ostheer and Westheer.

It would make also more sense by game design. Since soviets are called soviets and us forces are called us forces.

This okw phantasy name actually really annoys me.


I totally agree with you!
23 Jun 2014, 13:12 PM
#27
avatar of nigo
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23 Jun 2014, 13:19 PM
#28
avatar of MilkaCow

Posts: 577

Ostheer for the east German faction.
Westheer for the west German faction.

Simple, easy, understandable. I really liked Ostheer as a name, it just fit very well any most people got used to it. Oberkommando West is extremely long and also weird. The abbreviation clashes with "Oberkommando der Wehrmacht" which is an actual term.
23 Jun 2014, 13:25 PM
#29
avatar of computerheat
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I normally get all bent out of shape over tiny semantic differences, but I don't really care. Anyway, the correct names for the factions are obviously "Americans" and "un-Americans" :snfCHVGame:

I would like, that the Army of the USSR would not be called "soviets", but using the correct term "red army". The term changed to soviet army after WW2. Otherwise you would need to call the Wehrmacht the nazi army, which then would become quite a rant...

Good point. The units sometimes say "Red Army" in their chatter, at least.
23 Jun 2014, 13:27 PM
#30
avatar of spam.r33k

Posts: 503

the thing is: to give them historically accurate names one would have to consider that with WFA both german factions would be fighting on both fronts. there were 3 Heeresgruppen that fought on both fronts:

Heeresgruppe Süd
Heeresgruppe Nord
Heeresgruppe C

all of these were renamed later in the war.

i think names like these (including the "renamed" ones) only appeal to hardcore history fans and would confuse anyone else

what i would like to see is a general name for both factions with an alteration related to their main area of deployment. something along the lines of Heeresgruppe West/East (although these never existed).

EDIT: and yes, OKW and Wehrmacht is silly. OKW has a different meaning and wehrmacht is way too general
23 Jun 2014, 13:42 PM
#31
avatar of Twister
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Ostheer for the east German faction.
Westheer for the west German faction.


+1 potato
23 Jun 2014, 13:55 PM
#32
avatar of FichtenMoped
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Well technically the terms "Ostheer" and "Westheer" would be the right thing to say and for me they sound quite good :)

This Thread needs a poll ASAP :snfCHVGame:
23 Jun 2014, 14:11 PM
#33
avatar of Hirmetrium
Patrion 14

Posts: 179

Soviets are also called Red Army in Theater of War.

Seriously guys, its right there. You all have it. Go fire a game up and look in the troop window - it will say:

Your Name - Red Army

or

Your Name - Wehrmacht

The colour of the text matches player colour. I.e. the text will be blue if they are your troops.
23 Jun 2014, 14:17 PM
#34
avatar of Lokust22

Posts: 79

I am sure the army was officially called Ostheer at some point. But Westheer doesn't have the same ring to it, in my opinion.

I would've been fine with Wehrmacht and Ostheer. It still has the same problem you mentioned, but it is at least consistent with CoH1 and doesn't have any 3 word names that need to be abbreviated by necessity.
23 Jun 2014, 14:18 PM
#35
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053

Well technically the terms "Ostheer" and "Westheer" would be the right thing to say and for me they sound quite good :)

This Thread needs a poll ASAP :snfCHVGame:


YES +9001
23 Jun 2014, 14:20 PM
#36
avatar of AmiPolizeiFunk
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That is a logical solution but not a good one, IMO.

"Oberkommando" sounds a helluva lot sexier than "Westheer."

It's a game, it needs to sell and it needs to sounds good and/or bad-ass.
23 Jun 2014, 15:25 PM
#37
avatar of Cannonade

Posts: 752

Relic naming policy has been a sequence of misnomers. Russians, in particular, where upset by a few namings of Sovirt unit representations, even thoug ironically I for one think Relic called them that exactly for the reason of not accidentally offending amparticularly patriotic and inflexible reader. WWII is taught in Russia, as a result of the period of Soviet hegemony therafter, in a very different way than in the West. Just as for example the Japanese nukings are interpreted and taught, for purposes of explaining their necessity, differently in the US than abroad. Or how the UK educarion skips elements of Dunkirk in favor of a glorious evacuation, or thr failed landing at Galipoli. Or in my own native Finland, how we whitewash our own emminently important period of civil war between our own reds and whites.

In the DoW series they had them dictated to them by GW, and CoH, well, the historical reality enthusiasts have had field days since forever on many naming, let alone performance, disparities. Countlessn threads derailed :P

Who, and what, the Wehrmacht (and all its denominations) actually was, is a fascinating area of historical study.

Dane tries in his casts to throw some light on that, but this period of history is very interesting in regards to military organisation, and even more importantly, in regards to loyalty of different divisions. And if you want to get really into it, which divisions where involved with attrocities and which where just fighting a conventional war. To this day, historians are very involved with this differentiation.

Not to derail this discussion, but the German reality (or the media based interpretation of it, both internally and externally) at this point, is often misunderstood. The Wehrmacht swore loyalty to Hitler himself, and his nominal position as Der Fuhrer, in an extremely controversial but not unprecedented direct connection between state and the military. Whether the Wehrmacht knew the extent of Hitler and his associates machinations, is not rrally debatable. Afterall, he had already outined it all in "Mein Kampf". It was a matter of public knowledge and record.

But when the Kaiser himself advocated Hitler, abdicated from that position, and gave up his position as commander-in-chief, the Wehrmacht was essentially obligated to swear loyalty. Either that, or civil war.

For the most part, to my reading, the Wehrmacht, and its associated generals, focused more on winning the war that they where obligated, professionally, and by oath, to wage.
It was the secondarily established SS divisions, recruited on political beliefs, who committed the vast majority of attrocity during WWII. This is especially prominent in the Einsatzgruppen who often followed in the wake of the actual regular Wehrmacht divisions (and sometimes, preceeding them for political purposes of subjugating or subverting Eastern European cities and towns to neutralise them)

We will probably never know the complete and real details. The hardest part of historical analysis, is interpreting it all though a modern filter, while still being aware of the sociological norms and pressures of the time. (Not only in Germany, but in this period especially, in EVERY country involved in WWI, and even most of those who did not directly participate.)

Anyways, returning to the point of nomenclature, Coh2 has some degree of innaccuracy (and also in represented unit types). And people react sensitively to terms like "Ober", when for rxample the Wolfenstein series has hollywoodized them to mean something not entirely representative of the German meaning (as compared to "Uber", simple semantic misunderstanding).

Still, it is absolutely true that the Nazi Regime at this time likened themselves, and called themselves ultimately, as the "Third Reich". As the Third Roman Empire. Many readers may not be aware of this, but the geograhic region that largely is Germany, was named the Holy Roman Empire for hundreds of years previous to German unification. A collection of duchies and counties in direct fealty to an elected Emperor.

European history is astoundingly complex. No continent has seen so much conflict. No less than world wars fought here, each an encylopdiea of complication, and even those, barely a shadow in relfection of how much conflict, attrocity, intrigue and upheaval there has been here in the centuries preceeding it

TLDR: Oberkommando translates to "Supreme Command". It makes sense in German, though yes, it is a bit precocious, but such was the fashion at the time. Just as Ostheer was, somewhat after the fact, a title given to the sum of forces on that front.Its a term to desginate the organisational structure for that front, not for the actual divisions dedicated to it, most of whom which had even more bombastic names (though, again, the Wehrmacht was parciularly resistant to this, and often quite simply carried the name of their commanding officer, and not some Germanic myth). Never forget the impetus of the idea of a Third Reich, though, and the Roman Empire connection. That is really what they believed at the time, and a key function of propaganda. Brits apply their military esprit de corp to the heirtage of their regiment. The US to a paritcular kind of action and specialty. The Germans, in this case, either to their commanding officer (if Wehrmacht),ethnic composition of the unit ( and yes, its scary how many foreign troops they recruited into so-called legions) and the SS who loved their occult references.

But Oberkommando, is benign. Just designates as the command structure of the Western Front.
The allies themselves, infact, referred to their highest tier, as Supreme Command...



23 Jun 2014, 15:33 PM
#38
avatar of Icestrike

Posts: 71

I am german and the term Wehrmacht actually means something like "Force for striking back" or something like that. But it was indeed used for the whole army. In my opinion the OKW should stick with its name and the Ostheer (wich just means Eastern Troops) can use just this very name. Ostheer. So we have a "leading commando west" and the "eastern troops. Fine by me.
23 Jun 2014, 15:45 PM
#39
avatar of AmiPolizeiFunk
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I agree. IMO Relic should strongly consider renaming the "Germans" -> "Ostheer" and be done with it. Obviously there's no way that they can change OKW now. But renaming "Germans" -> "Wehrmacht" is just a horrible decision that makes no sense at all to me for these key reasons:

  • Any German WW2 Army (including future factions) would be part of the "Wehrmacht", so the new Relic "OKW" should also be considered part of the "Wehrmacht."

  • "Wehrmacht" was the faction name for the original vanilla army in COH1 and should not be recycled.

  • "Ostheer" refers to the "East Army", which makes a nice compliment to "Oberkommando West" and stays true to the original Eastern Front of Company of Heroes 2.
23 Jun 2014, 16:09 PM
#40
avatar of TheMachine
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Posts: 875 | Subs: 6

From the perspective of a caster, saying OberKommandoWest over and over again is getting really lame. It's long, awkward to say and it sounds way more of an English word than a German word, which kills half the bad-arsery.

I think half the reason why Ostheer caught on so well was because of the Eastern Front Armies mod for Coh1 referred to them as Ostheer.
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