Minor german issues.

A redesign of the Panther:

Lower the teching costs to 30 for T4, lower Panther fuel cost to 150, raise MP cost by 100.

Lower rear armor from 110 to 90 (so the T-34 and SU-76 can pen)

What I find sad about the Panther is that the whole vehicle has become some sort of defensive support unit. You can´t use it offensively. If you use it to attack and one or two Soviet tanks appear you have to hit the reverse button and drive straight back to your base. Otherwise you go down with five shots.

Nowadays the Panther is best parked somewhere in the hinterland of your forces to deliver a killing blow to already damaged T-34s. Something that the Pak can do way more cost efficiently.

Welcome to the world of soviet armor.

However i do agree that panther needs a SLIGHT cost decrease. I dont think you understand the panther has 240 penetration and has the range of a stug. The only thing that outranges the panther is SU-85s and ISU-152. Everything else the panther can outrange.

To compare, su-85 has only 190 penetration!

Also, its the almost the fastest vehicle in the game. It has the same speed of an t-34/85 and the t-34/76 slightly beats it in terms of speed.

Also, i like the fact that stugs have anti infantry capability this patch. Its one of those things that make them viable now even in a 1v1. Stugs shouldn't be an su-85 copy with shorter range.

Welcome to the world of soviet armor.

However i do agree that panther needs a SLIGHT cost decrease. I dont think you understand the panther has 240 penetration and has the range of a stug. The only thing that outranges the panther is SU-85s and ISU-152. Everything else the panther can outrange.

To compare, su-85 has only 190 penetration!

Also, its the almost the fastest vehicle in the game. It has the same speed of an t-34/85 and the t-34/76 slightly beats it in terms of speed.

Also, i like the fact that stugs have anti infantry capability this patch. Its one of those things that make them viable now even in a 1v1. Stugs shouldn't be an su-85 copy with shorter range.

And the lowest dps of any tank hunter/ generalist tank.

And the lowest dps of any tank hunter/ generalist tank.

And highest health and armor of any of them.

To all the people saying the Panther is a terrible unit, its because you are still trying to use it as it was before, where you could charge into danger and blitz out without much risk. Stop thinking you can do that and actually learn how to reuse the panther.

As you know, penetration is now dependant on range. If you keep the Panther at much longer range, it will bounce far more shots than if a tank is in its face. Also remember it has more range than other tanks, so you can make excellent use of this. Make good use of reverse and you can take on 2 T34's and win. Its also not that bad against infantry considering soviets lack proper infantry based AT. Turret MG helps quite a bit as well as giving it limited AA.

It could probably use a slight cost reduction, but I think its more of an issue to do with the Tiger performing so well for its cost.

And highest health and armor of any of them.

Who gives a fuck! the panther loses to soviet medium generalist armor . I expect a dedicated tank destroyer to wipe the floor with t-34's or shermans

To all the people saying the Panther is a terrible unit, its because you are still trying to use it as it was before, where you could charge into danger and blitz out without much risk. Stop thinking you can do that and actually learn how to reuse the panther.

its durability combined with speed was a very major issue in the previous patch where it was near invincible with vet 1. but at the same time it needed durability in order tot and the damage while it slowly destroyed its enemy. it not only took a hit in that direction but the soviet medium armor some substantial buffs. its no longer able to cost effectively stand up to t-34' s or shermans.

altering the tactics will not change that as 2 stugs simply perform better.

Who gives a fuck! the panther loses to soviet medium generalist armor . I expect a dedicated tank destroyer to wipe the floor with t-34's or shermans

Sure it does, why do you believe it should be able to walk over multiple tanks at once?

Do you expect lone SU-85 to kill a pair of P4s when they will keep advancing as well?
Panther is still quite amazing AT tank, its just not a stand alone behemoth that can shrug off 4 T34s shots and kill them all on a slugfest.

Katitof, are you paid to roam in the forum, bashing everyone who's trying to tell that this game need adjustments ? Your clearly lack manners in terms of putting arguments on the table, instead of being peremptory like this.

These are Katitofs forums, we just live in them MVGame. Your best bet is to either ignore his posts entirely or not buy into his flame baiting.

Pgren armor nerf was unnecessary. Now they're just a huge waste on MP use.

Sure it does, why do you believe it should be able to walk over multiple tanks at once?

Do you expect lone SU-85 to kill a pair of P4s when they will keep advancing as well?
Panther is still quite amazing AT tank, its just not a stand alone behemoth that can shrug off 4 T34s shots and kill them all on a slugfest.

Your first mistake is compare to the panther to the su85. its retarded logic so dont do that again as both units are fundamentally different . can a su-85 handle 2 p4's when properly used? yes. its impossible for the p4 to win from the su85 from the front that's why skill and a good army composition is a great factor to prevent any tank from flanking the su85 and force them into the su85 firing arch. i dont deal in 1 vs 1 scenario's because that is retarded.

Now the panther is a front line slugger. and as slugger is the most inefficient unit in the game it only has 800 hp better armor but very poor dps allowing soviet generalist tanks to cost effectively engage it. for the record the shermans and t-34-85 rof is significantly higher and they have the penetration to knock the tank destroyer out.

and i dont consider specialist tanks worth if they cannot deal with at least twice the amount of fuel and mp in generalist tanks. increasing its ROF 4.5 seconds will fix most of its problems

T-34 - one shoot wiping squads, Shermans 1 shoot wiping squads, ZiS - 1 shoot wiping squads, ISU-152 wiping squads with sheer presence, Soviet mines - wiping squads.
I think it's about time Germans receive 5th man into a squad. DPS should be changed accordingly.
I really try to preserve these squads but it pointless! 2 men gone? Press retreat otherwise you're gambling and the odds are not in your favour.
5 men squad would help against Soviet sniper as well!

A redesign of the Panther:

Lower the teching costs to 30 for T4, lower Panther fuel cost to 150, raise MP cost by 100.

Lower rear armor from 110 to 90 (so the T-34 and SU-76 can pen)

This. I have taken on two Sherman's with a panther through kiting. Panthers performance is fine. It's cost is not fine.

Your first mistake is compare to the panther to the su85. its retarded logic so dont do that again as both units are fundamentally different . can a su-85 handle 2 p4's when properly used? yes. its impossible for the p4 to win from the su85 from the front that's why skill and a good army composition is a great factor to prevent any tank from flanking the su85 and force them into the su85 firing arch. i dont deal in 1 vs 1 scenario's because that is retarded.

continuing on.

Now the panther is a front line slugger. and as slugger is the most inefficient unit in the game it only has 800 hp better armor but very poor dps allowing soviet generalist tanks to cost effectively engage it. for the record the shermans and t-34-85 rof is significantly higher and they have the penetration to knock the tank destroyer out.

and i dont consider specialist tanks worth if they cannot deal with at least twice the amount of fuel and mp in generalist tanks. increasing its ROF 4.5 seconds will fix most of its problems

thats the problem here. u are using it like a front line slugger. that is not proper usage, its a tank, you expose it to the least amount of enemy fire and try to do as much damage as you can, by flanking and using shot blockers. you run away when soviets are supporting their tank better than you, not sit there and take shots just because its a panther.

1v1 is the scenario where it justifies the panther's unit cost(NOT TECHING COST), the panther reigns supreme, no other tank bar the is2 can brawl with it. how many t34 or shermans are you want it to face off? not even a single tiger has a chance with a swarm of t34.

dealing with twice its cost is a matter of usage. a sniper is a specialist unit, can it deal with 3 gren squads? the sniper has no chance if 3 gren squads were to bum rush it. but a sniper at range and with a screening force can put the pain on as many gren squads as you can throw at them.

what you are asking for is a OPed tank, seen back in the past versions of the game. stupidly quick with blitzkrieg, stupidly tanky due to soviet pathetic gun penetration and its huge hp pool and with a escape mechanism. you have played with it too long and are far too comfortable with it. its time to adapt towards a more balanced game.

stats wise, the panther is fine. its tough, its tanky BUT its prohibitively expensive. not the unit cost, but the teching cost. its much cheaper to wait for cps for a tiger tank than tech to t4 and buy a panther. thats not the fault of soviets tanks getting buffs, those buffs were long overdue.

T-34 - one shoot wiping squads, Shermans 1 shoot wiping squads, ZiS - 1 shoot wiping squads, ISU-152 wiping squads with sheer presence, Soviet mines - wiping squads.
I think it's about time Germans receive 5th man into a squad. DPS should be changed accordingly.
I really try to preserve these squads but it pointless! 2 men gone? Press retreat otherwise you're gambling and the odds are not in your favour.
5 men squad would help against Soviet sniper as well!

Lol, is nasty loosing entire squads no matter how carefull you are isn't it? Welcome in the world of german infantry units and maybe now people will understand why I say IT IS EASIER TO PLAY WITH SOVIETS, BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THESE STUPID UNFAIR PROBLEMS.

continuing on.



thats the problem here. u are using it like a front line slugger. that is not proper usage, its a tank, you expose it to the least amount of enemy fire and try to do as much damage as you can, by flanking and using shot blockers. you run away when soviets are supporting their tank better than you, not sit there and take shots just because its a panther.

1v1 is the scenario where it justifies the panther's unit cost(NOT TECHING COST), the panther reigns supreme, no other tank bar the is2 can brawl with it. how many t34 or shermans are you want it to face off? not even a single tiger has a chance with a swarm of t34.

dealing with twice its cost is a matter of usage. a sniper is a specialist unit, can it deal with 3 gren squads? the sniper has no chance if 3 gren squads were to bum rush it. but a sniper at range and with a screening force can put the pain on as many gren squads as you can throw at them.

what you are asking for is a OPed tank, seen back in the past versions of the game. stupidly quick with blitzkrieg, stupidly tanky due to soviet pathetic gun penetration and its huge hp pool and with a escape mechanism. you have played with it too long and are far too comfortable with it. its time to adapt towards a more balanced game.

stats wise, the panther is fine. its tough, its tanky BUT its prohibitively expensive. not the unit cost, but the teching cost. its much cheaper to wait for cps for a tiger tank than tech to t4 and buy a panther. thats not the fault of soviets tanks getting buffs, those buffs were long overdue.

While I agree to the fact that you should be carefull with your units and not use them in mindless attacks, I am sick and tired of people saying units "are not supposed to be used" like this. Then please tell us, how should we use the Panther? If I'm paying a fortune on a tank, I expect from it to perform accordingly. Take into calculation the phases, the T buildings. Otherwise I will not build it at all and build more of something cheaper. Understand the logic? Ringing a bell? Why should I pay such a big amount of manpower and fuel for a tank that 70% of its battle time is runing and dodging enemy fire in order not to be killed in amatter of seconds? Because all good players will try to kite it at the first received hit.
I can agree to people that say it should remain like this but lower production costs. And I say, lower it consistently or Panther will not be seen anymore on the battlefield. There allready are several units that are underused or not used at all.

While I agree to the fact that you should be carefull with your units and not use them in mindless attacks, I am sick and tired of people saying units "are not supposed to be used" like this. Then please tell us, how should we use the Panther? If I'm paying a fortune on a tank, I expect from it to perform accordingly. Take into calculation the phases, the T buildings. Otherwise I will not build it at all and build more of something cheaper. Understand the logic? Ringing a bell? Why should I pay such a big amount of manpower and fuel for a tank that 70% of its battle time is runing and dodging enemy fire in order not to be killed in amatter of seconds? Because all good players will try to kite it at the first received hit.
I can agree to people that say it should remain like this but lower production costs. And I say, lower it consistently or Panther will not be seen anymore on the battlefield. There allready are several units that are underused or not used at all.

killed in matter of seconds from what? AT guns? t34s? it only happens if you run into soviet lines head first without weakening their lines 1st or hitting a mine or 2 and losing ur engine. cant blame anyone for that when a swarm of t34s comes and hunt ur weakened panthers down.

stop initiating fights with panthers. its no longer the tank it used to be when they could mess up soviet lines just by charging in. if you rush panthers into the straight into enemy lines, expect them to be taken out. instead chip away at their defenses with indirect fire and gain advantage in map control with ur superior mobility. t34s have no chance against panthers, so expect AT guns and bring along infantry to deal with them. then settle ur paks elsewhere to guard against smart players who relocate their t34s to another side of the map away from ur panthers.

there's a problem with teching cost and CP gain, no doubt about that. but there's none with the unit itself. cost does not justify a unit being OP. look at what the old tiger ace was, stupidly tanky with 2000hp, 320dmg and with a whole bunch of abilities. expensive? yes. balanced? not in any sense of the word.

i didnt mention isu152 beating it because its clearly an OP unit, needs to go out of the game together with the elefant.

thats the problem here. u are using it like a front line slugger. that is not proper usage, its a tank, you expose it to the least amount of enemy fire and try to do as much damage as you can, by flanking and using shot blockers. you run away when soviets are supporting their tank better than you, not sit there and take shots just because its a panther.

It has no proper usage. it takes elements from other TD's and you get a patched together mess that doesnt know what kind of TD it wants to be.

1v1 is the scenario where it justifies the panther's unit cost(NOT TECHING COST), the panther reigns supreme, no other tank bar the is2 can brawl with it. how many t34 or shermans are you want it to face off? not even a single tiger has a chance with a swarm of t34.

the fact that it so badly loses to the is-2 is simply reason enough not to buy it. the second heaviest td struggling against a heavy generalist tank is a joke. take for comparison the panther vs pershing matchup which was in blatant favour for the panther.

dealing with twice its cost is a matter of usage. a sniper is a specialist unit, can it deal with 3 gren squads? the sniper has no chance if 3 gren squads were to bum rush it. but a sniper at range and with a screening force can put the pain on as many gren squads as you can throw at them.

retarded logic.

what you are asking for is a OPed tank, seen back in the past versions of the game. stupidly quick with blitzkrieg, stupidly tanky due to soviet pathetic gun penetration and its huge hp pool and with a escape mechanism. you have played with it too long and are far too comfortable with it. its time to adapt towards a more balanced game.

If you havent noticed nearly all soviet medium armor got its penetration buffed . but the greatest problem is that many soviet player refused to use the su85 then complain about.

stats wise, the panther is fine. its tough, its tanky

LOL

BUT its prohibitively expensive. not the unit cost, but the teching cost. its much cheaper to wait for cps for a tiger tank than tech to t4 and buy a panther. thats not the fault of soviets tanks getting buffs, those buffs were long overdue.

fine i will stick to the cost effective tiger. the panther is not fine stat wise. no is going to argue that the previous panther combined with bliz(which got completely nerfed btw} was op. But now it needs a significant dps increase to remain cost effective.

apparently jaigen wants a panther that simply wipes soviet armor of the floor no matter how he uses it.

The panther 1v1 loses to an IS-2 slightly (unless your retarded and just rush in your panther)

Panther has 800 health IS-2 has 960 (panther gets more if vet 2)
Panther has 240 pen vs IS-2 220
Panther has 270 armor vs IS-2 340 (panther vet 2 gets it slightly more than 300)
Panther has a higher RoF than an IS-2.

Panther is fine for example (bit too expensive tho) IF your opponent does not use call in tanks, by the time you have your first panther out, your opponent has 2-3 t-34/76s. If he has 2, your panther has an advantage, if he has 3 your panther is at a disadvantage.

However, why get 2 t-34/76s if you can get 4 t-34/85s for the same price?
And why get a panther if you can nearly get 2 tigers for the same price?

Do you guys see the problem?

Call ins.

If call ins were made to require t3 or t4, soviet mines far blast radius would be reduced, ISU-152 and elephant got their range reduced, maybe M3A1 had slightly less armor the game would be beautiful.

he is probably bitter that he is losing games because he cannot use panthers the way he did before and wipe the floor with it.

the nerf to call in tanks would be great, that or a huge bump in cp required.