So, what your saying is, you need a 60 munition upgrade and an MG to beat a 30 munition upgrade.Upgraded grens still beat upgraded cons 1 on 1.
PPSH x3 Aftermath Update
24 Feb 2014, 22:22 PM
#121
Posts: 2561
24 Feb 2014, 22:31 PM
#122
Posts: 409
So, what your saying is, you need a 60 munition upgrade and an MG to beat a 30 munition upgrade.
No, what he is saying is you need a 60 munition upgrade and an MG to beat 2x30 munition upgrades, which is fine.
Problem is, they have to walk into your trap first.
24 Feb 2014, 22:32 PM
#123
Posts: 409
Upgraded grens still beat upgraded cons 1 on 1.
Only true if you're on the defensive (as in not moving) and not the offensive.
To take the fight to the enemy you've got to get SkillGewehr43's.
24 Feb 2014, 23:54 PM
#124
Posts: 123
I really don't see why this is such a big deal. Previously you got 2 smgs for 10, now you get 3 for 30 and it's a problem? It's a tradeoff, you forgo long range power for short range power. It's a nice upgrade but conscripts vs G43s or LMGs still get beaten by them, it all depends on the scenario and tactics you use.
25 Feb 2014, 00:57 AM
#125
Posts: 208
I don't know if anyone's mentioned this as a factor but irrelevant of balance it just makes the game boring
Conspam PPSH VS Grenspam LMG just makes stale games
Conspam PPSH VS Grenspam LMG just makes stale games
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25 Feb 2014, 01:07 AM
#126
Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1
No, what he is saying is you need a 60 munition upgrade and an MG to beat 2x30 munition upgrades, which is fine.
Problem is, they have to walk into your trap first.
This is exactly what I was saying, and you are also correct about setting a trap. However, Ost generally revolves around a trap design. Units are powerful but have fewer members, so you give up capping power to hold one area well, because you can't afford to be as aggressive.
I will concede that con spam is boring...very, very boring. I don't have an immediate answer to this problem other than to say that Ost needs a way to punish conscript heavy starts. This used to be the FHT, but I find that unit under performing. I would give up reinforcing around the HT, if it got a nice buff upon upgrade. Also its vanilla gun could use with something to make it useful.
25 Feb 2014, 01:17 AM
#127
Posts: 337
I don't know if anyone's mentioned this as a factor but irrelevant of balance it just makes the game boring
Conspam PPSH VS Grenspam LMG just makes stale games
Yea, I wish they bring back the vCOH dynamic where BAR Riflemen completely owns Volks, but can be controlled by MG42 teams. MG42 teams in this game are far too easy to counter, but Grens are stronger.
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25 Feb 2014, 03:48 AM
#128
Posts: 4928
No, what he is saying is you need a 60 munition upgrade and an MG to beat 2x30 munition upgrades, which is fine.
Problem is, they have to walk into your trap first.
Uh no, 1 Gren + LMG 42 < x2 Conscripts + x6 PPSh-41. In fact PPSH Cons + Molotov > LMG Grenadier, because they take heavy damage and lose precious DPS by relocating.
I will concede that con spam is boring...very, very boring. I don't have an immediate answer to this problem other than to say that Ost needs a way to punish conscript heavy starts. This used to be the FHT, but I find that unit under performing. I would give up reinforcing around the HT, if it got a nice buff upon upgrade. Also its vanilla gun could use with something to make it useful.
Funny thing is, the HT MG is actually weaker than the Panzer Hull MG since the Hull MH got buffed.
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> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
25 Feb 2014, 04:30 AM
#129
Posts: 93
PPSH is driving me crazy at my craptastic level of play, even if it isn't the problem. Right now pgrens seem like a pretty bad investment.
If they just raised the price on cons And grens by 20 to 30 manpower, I think the game would be better for it. It would be nice if you could do a t2 start to pgrens, or a strong t1 or t2 start with Russia.
25 Feb 2014, 04:55 AM
#130
Posts: 409
Uh no, 1 Gren + LMG 42 < x2 Conscripts + x6 PPSh-41. In fact PPSH Cons + Molotov > LMG Grenadier, because they take heavy damage and lose precious DPS by relocating.
What the guy was saying is if the two conscripts were blobbed together they would effectively be unable to attack you without suffering heavy losses.
I, however, am somewhat agreeing with you as it entirely hinges on the enemy walking into your MG.
25 Feb 2014, 04:56 AM
#131
Posts: 409
This is exactly what I was saying, and you are also correct about setting a trap. However, Ost generally revolves around a trap design. Units are powerful but have fewer members, so you give up capping power to hold one area well, because you can't afford to be as aggressive.
I will concede that con spam is boring...very, very boring. I don't have an immediate answer to this problem other than to say that Ost needs a way to punish conscript heavy starts. This used to be the FHT, but I find that unit under performing. I would give up reinforcing around the HT, if it got a nice buff upon upgrade. Also its vanilla gun could use with something to make it useful.
Ostheer revolves around a trap design but are unable to plant booby traps (demo charges) and have fucking signs on their infantry mines? The irony. Think how much more effective the MG42 could be if you could protect a flank with a mine that was actually hidden.
Why would the Soviets IRL ever need trampler battalions if there were signs on the minefields everywhere? Why are your soldiers in-game so retarded that they just blindly walk into the field while auto-pathing when there are giant signs everywhere? I find this to be insulting and I'm not even Russian.
They should revert the minefield build speed but delete the fucking signs. Seriously.
Conscript spam is not boring - well, at least not as much as Shock spam.
EDIT: Apparently Relic saw this clip and decided to buff the PPSH conscripts. http://youtu.be/l0KttKFrhqE?t=1m36s
25 Feb 2014, 05:21 AM
#132
Posts: 4928
Soviets in the game don't even have trampler battalions, and never will because it'd be too controversial. Relic got bad rep from around the bloc because they portrayed Order No. 227, the Russian betrayal of Poland, and Stalin's paranoid treatment of high-rank officials near him. No way in hell they'd portray tramplers as a dedicated unit (they wouldn't be that helpful anyway, how often do you actually need to clear mines that bad?).
I do wish we got some real penal troops though. There are times I'd like to see the German's defenses, and it'd be great if I could just charge a suicide squad in to see what's there. Real infantry are too busy, and so called "Penal Battalions" are ironically worth more than Conscripts, costing as much as Guard Rifles, and fighting twice as hard.
I do wish we got some real penal troops though. There are times I'd like to see the German's defenses, and it'd be great if I could just charge a suicide squad in to see what's there. Real infantry are too busy, and so called "Penal Battalions" are ironically worth more than Conscripts, costing as much as Guard Rifles, and fighting twice as hard.
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25 Feb 2014, 06:08 AM
#133
Posts: 1003
I do wish we got some real penal troops though. There are times I'd like to see the German's defenses, and it'd be great if I could just charge a suicide squad in to see what's there. Real infantry are too busy, and so called "Penal Battalions" are ironically worth more than Conscripts, costing as much as Guard Rifles, and fighting twice as hard.
Penal battalion was made from officers. Well trained and superior armed. After they are redeemed by the blood, they could go back to the army unit. And yes, they fight realy hard.
I want to have the same chance, to win for each side.
25 Feb 2014, 09:24 AM
#134
Posts: 4928
There were units like that, but the voice acting and text descriptions are miles away from it.
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25 Feb 2014, 10:07 AM
#135
15 
Posts: 786
the problem to me is always the same broken game mechanic, no matter the range the engagements start at, it's always possible to close in and turn it in a close range fight, there is almost no penalty for closing in to a static squad, even when running through negative cover. This is basically what makes penals worthless and make ppsh much more usable than G43s.
Automatic weapon squads should be rewarded for taking advantage of flanking and truesight instead.
Automatic weapon squads should be rewarded for taking advantage of flanking and truesight instead.
25 Feb 2014, 12:11 PM
#136
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
I don't know if anyone's mentioned this as a factor but irrelevant of balance it just makes the game boring
Conspam PPSH VS Grenspam LMG just makes stale games
And before that 3 cons into shocks made the game stale and before that guards with M3 made the game stale and before that maxims made the game stale.
It doesn't take a genius to realize that 100% of soviet openings 'make the game stale', but somehow german openings don't, despite being equally repetitive. Or at least thats what community bitches about.
Soviets have about 5 openings+gimmicky 4delulz strats(like any one involving penals) and all of them give players a hard time.
Or at least to the ones who spam forums with "SU OP OST UP" threads and yet, streamers doesn't seem to have problem winning as germans at all. Maybe its high time to put down box of tissues and improve yourself?
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
25 Feb 2014, 12:54 PM
#137
2 
Posts: 2181
The complete Soviet faction relies on gimmicks, that's the issue
25 Feb 2014, 13:19 PM
#138
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
The complete Soviet faction relies on gimmicks, that's the issue
I wouldn't call them this way, but that is the faction design.
Everyone and its dog says its a bad design, but relic went with it anyway so it won't change. The biggest change relic ever did in their RTS was moving one unit to different tier in DoW2 for orkz.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
25 Feb 2014, 14:21 PM
#139
Posts: 150
The biggest change relic ever did in their RTS was moving one unit to different tier in DoW2 for orkz.
oh god, my beloved T1 stikkbombaz...
I still miss them.
25 Feb 2014, 23:38 PM
#140
Posts: 208
Yea, I wish they bring back the vCOH dynamic where BAR Riflemen completely owns Volks, but can be controlled by MG42 teams. MG42 teams in this game are far too easy to counter, but Grens are stronger.
The two main issues I've noticed with MG42's is 1) there is perhaps a slightly too long delay between it setting up and picking a target/shooting and 2) the gunner getting sniped (causing an instant retreat or loss of the gun)
And before that 3 cons into shocks made the game stale and before that guards with M3 made the game stale and before that maxims made the game stale.
It doesn't take a genius to realize that 100% of soviet openings 'make the game stale', but somehow german openings don't, despite being equally repetitive. Or at least thats what community bitches about.
A faction being more fun to play against rather than with is what determines my current favourite and unfortunately Ostheer are incredibly limited to their early game build orders.
At least when Soviet players used T1/T2 openings and Shocks it provided more variety to play against.
The safest option against Consspam is Grens and I personally find this a very boring matchup
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