since we are adding prototype tanks in game

You are doing some heavy tailoring there but allow me. The V1 relied on recon of a known position and time to construct a ramp and set the auto pilot, for a chance to hit an area. The targets generally being cities. Id cast serious doubt on its ability to hit a bridge with a singe deployment. So yes, fiction on a heavy level and certainly again not used on single positions of troops on a platoon or battalion level as COH1 depicted. Quite often as a counter to USF base howitzers as I remember (in the game not life).

So again for the numerous times, COH is a work of historical fiction already because its a game, Black Prince is likely coming and id doubt its full removal or adding a German unit as well as that would tilt balance the other way.

So reiterating again, to maintain the games designed balance its likely staying put. The only successful suggestion I could see them implementing is a unit with identical stats just with a different model. Certainly don't see them adding an axis unit to solve this gatekeeping of some kind of historical accuracy.

And did they achieve a 100% on target rate like the COH1 V1?

The record of aerially launched V1s at southern England the UK analysts weren't sure which of two cities were their intended target from the spread of the rockets. That's a strategic target they cant reliably hit. I mean to say the v1 was a reliable tactical weapon as its represented in COH is outrageously fictional, I'm not sure what kind of justification you need but history shows it as a strategic weapon not a tactical one.

Relic is making a game, if history was the ultimate concern that would have been some boring multiplayer as you'd permanently have COH 1 war machine and they even dropped that idea from COH2 soviets which was a bit un historical.

Unfortunately for you this thread doesn't lock on your tailored idea of historical accuracy. They were terrible tactical weapons.

So it was extremely un historical in COH that they could be launched pin point accurate onto individual squads and units if you so wished. Go figure un historical items in a video game.

If the devs needed a Konigstiger Killer for Brits why did they not add a historical chassis of Churchill and put in a completely fictional (in ww2 terms) vehicle?

answer me and stop evading by talking about the fucking v1 rocket

You say you have 9 years experience reading history and yet is FOR the BP addition and think it constitutes a WW2 tank?

Yeah right

I didn't say I thought the Black Prince was a WW2 tank, I said I couldn't care less about its inclusion in a game which already has a fantasy interpretation of the Nazi Wehrmacht. Get it right.

Can we just be honest with ourselves here and admit they probably did it so it could have a mobility advantage? Like srsly churchills are slower than King Tigers in CoH. If they did end up making this KT-killer behemoth Churchill, who the fuck would use it when it's moving at 3.3 millimeters per minute?

I didn't say I thought the Black Prince was a WW2 tank, I said I couldn't care less about its inclusion in a game which already has a fantasy interpretation of the Nazi Wehrmacht. Get it right.

Well it seem to me that what you are saying is you have no problem with the Black prince being added for the allies but you would have one if the Mouse tank was introduced for the axis.

Pls try to move beyond axis and allies since this not an issue of sides but an issue of introducing prototype units to the game.

Historically accurate? No. Is it authentic? Yes. And the Black Prince breaks authenticity.

This is extremely nitpicky logic tbh. Hard to follow ur argument when the representation of cetain things just doesnt matter at all, as long as they existed. Thats a really weird take

Why did you even come up with the idea that the Black Prince is needed? On the example of CoH2, we clearly see that the Soviets and the United States are based on tank destroyers. Their heavy tanks (namely, the tank, not the ISU-152) are practically not used.

The pershing and IS2 are not used? Were used quite a lot at many different stages of the game, and the pershing is defintiely still useable currently

And how the fuk do u know BP will be meta? The game isnt even out yet...

This is extremely nitpicky logic tbh. Hard to follow ur argument when the representation of cetain things just doesnt matter at all, as long as they existed. Thats a really weird take


The pershing and IS2 are not used? Were used quite a lot at many different stages of the game, and the pershing is defintiely still useable currently

And how the fuk do u know BP will be meta? The game isnt even out yet...

Historical - no. For the false quotes of Chuikov and Malinovsky alone, Relic should be sued for libel. Authentic - yes. The game features units that actually participated in the war, without prototypes, without space marines, without elves.

Are we playing the same game? The IS-2 is extremely rare on the battlefield, it is a rather mediocre tank that is constantly complained about as well as the Pershing, especially reading that the US faction was designed without a heavy tank at all and was not planned to be added to the game until the players demanded.

If people want authenticity so much then why dont you speaknout to change to over represented heavies axis have? Why not limit them for an x number per game regardles off players numbers? That is authentic just as keeping the bp out of coh3.

Protype means no go, 1 battle at all no biggie its in, even if it meant absolutly nothing in the grand scheme off things. As other said nitpicking at its finest.

If the main criterium is "has this equipment been used in WW2?", you're not aiming at authenticity either.

This is just pure nitpicking if you ask me. We can as well say, why "War Machine" existed in vCoH, because it also does look kinda fictional. I will repeat myself again, lets just sum up what kind of fiction was allowed for CoH across both games:

1) Misrepresentation of units
2) Some fictional abilities on units
3) Rare or super rare used equipment representation
4) Believable abilities made to fit gameplay
5) Fictional, but belivable, ammunition on a small scale (grenades mostly)
6) Pure gameplay abilities which-in the scope of represented factions (vCoH USA "War Machine")
7) Wrong time periods
8) Wrong availability of rare equipment

Where would you put Black Prince? It wasn't finished, it wasn't used, it wasn't put into a production. Literally 6 were made and all 6 were prototypes. Besides the fact that BP looks like a ww2 tank, it doesn't fit into any category CoH previously allowed itself to mess with.

At this point, it would be fine to use a normal Churchill (hek, even a Sherman) and just slap Black Prince stats on top of it so it can defeat a Panther. I am sure most people would not be fine with that.

And it would have been perfectly fine with-in the scope of how CoH gameplay mechanics works. Aside from balance\faction reasoning and some commons sense, kubelwagen could be made into a TD, with an ability to fire its MG into some tank weakspot or something

Are we playing the same game? The IS-2 is extremely rare on the battlefield, it is a rather mediocre tank that is constantly complained about as well as the Pershing, especially reading that the US faction was designed without a heavy tank at all and was not planned to be added to the game until the players demanded.

Yeah its currently rare.... game has been out for 9 years man, at multiple points during that time is2 was extremely common, which is what i was talking about. Same goes for Pershing, which is totally still useable (in 2v2 at least)

This is just pure nitpicking if you ask me. We can as well say, why "War Machine" existed in vCoH, because it also does look kinda fictional. I will repeat myself again, lets just sum up what kind of fiction was allowed for CoH across both games:

1) Misrepresentation of units
2) Some fictional abilities on units
3) Rare or super rare used equipment representation
4) Believable abilities made to fit gameplay
5) Fictional, but belivable, ammunition on a small scale (grenades mostly)
6) Pure gameplay abilities which-in the scope of represented factions (vCoH USA "War Machine")
7) Wrong time periods
8) Wrong availability of rare equipment

Where would you put Black Prince? It wasn't finished, it wasn't used, it wasn't put into a production. Literally 6 were made and all 6 were prototypes. Besides the fact that BP looks like a ww2 tank, it doesn't fit into any category CoH previously allowed itself to mess with.

Its plenty close enough to option number 3 imo....

Sturmtiger was extremely rare, and yet during multiple periods of the coh2 meta u would see one EVERY single game. Yet most WW2 vets wouldnt even recognize one if u showed them a picture

Sure ST was actually used in ww2, not disputing that. But as long as BP isnt dominating the meta i dont see the problem

"This existed on the front AT LEAST once" is a silly line to draw imo. Especially in a franchise that has warped that line all over the place

Well it seem to me that what you are saying is you have no problem with the Black prince being added for the allies but you would have one if the Mouse tank was introduced for the axis.

Pls try to move beyond axis and allies since this not an issue of sides but an issue of introducing prototype units to the game.

I don’t see many people doing that, as has been brought up by multiple people now it has been the German factions that have benefitted greatly from slanted takes on authenticity, historical accuracy whatever label you want to put on it plain fiction. If we can’t have the discussion on the acknowledgment that this occurred I do hold my point that it seems more like Gatekeeping of relics product direction that didn’t occur for questionable axis inclusions.

Bergetigers weren’t some magical unit that made all wrecks brand new again and that will pretty poorly represent the axis tank availability in the desert, and yet for a fun game they’re adding it to the franchise a second time.

We have an ability with involves invincible JU87s, I mean that’s kinda easy to call fiction

We have stock king tigers

We have a luftwaffe that can make great difference on the field post Bodenplatte, and if we can’t acknowledge the memoirs of their own commanders saying it was the end of their strategic ability to influence any further battles I’d call That fiction too.

Again all of these decisions added up to the board room meetings relic had “How do we attract people to our product” not “authenticity” not fact, we got a fun historical fiction as breaking your panther by moving, constructing purpose bridges to cross your jagdtigers wouldn’t be fun.

I think it’s nice to see that there are more than afew folk in the camp that it’s eyebrow raising that this seems like the sky is falling to some and an outrageous fiction when the game more than slanted many axis abilities for the sake of fun.

Hopefully relic does the right thing and either launches with it to prevent balance issues or at most models a smaller gun but retains the potency. Just listening blindly to the tailored ideas I’ve seen here suggests remove it and have this myth of German superiority in all fields.

I don’t see many people doing that, as has been brought up by multiple people now it has been the German factions that have benefitted greatly from slanted takes on authenticity, historical accuracy whatever label you want to put on it plain fiction.

You are talking about balance in topic that has little to do with balance.

If we can’t have the discussion on the acknowledgment that this occurred I do hold my point that it seems more like Gatekeeping of relics product direction that didn’t occur for questionable axis inclusions.

Bergetigers weren’t some magical unit that made all wrecks brand new again and that will pretty poorly represent the axis tank availability in the desert, and yet for a fun game they’re adding it to the franchise a second time.

We have an ability with involves invincible JU87s, I mean that’s kinda easy to call fiction

We have stock king tigers

We have a luftwaffe that can make great difference on the field post Bodenplatte, and if we can’t acknowledge the memoirs of their own commanders saying it was the end of their strategic ability to influence any further battles I’d call That fiction too.

Again all of these decisions added up to the board room meetings relic had “How do we attract people to our product” not “authenticity” not fact, we got a fun historical fiction as breaking your panther by moving, constructing purpose bridges to cross your jagdtigers wouldn’t be fun.

I think it’s nice to see that there are more than afew folk in the camp that it’s eyebrow raising that this seems like the sky is falling to some and an outrageous fiction when the game more than slanted many axis abilities for the sake of fun.

Hopefully relic does the right thing and either launches with it to prevent balance issues or at most models a smaller gun but retains the potency. Just listening blindly to the tailored ideas I’ve seen here suggests remove it and have this myth of German superiority in all fields.

You are talking about game play in topic that has little to do with topic.

If what you claim as authentic was put in the game, axis should be wining all game up to 1942-43 and lose on the game after that but none would want to play a game like that...

Well it seem to me that what you are saying is you have no problem with the Black prince being added for the allies but you would have one if the Mouse tank was introduced for the axis.

Pls try to move beyond axis and allies since this not an issue of sides but an issue of introducing prototype units to the game.

Where did I say I would have a problem with the Maus? I wouldn't, really, if it were balanced and fun to use, the only criteria by which I would judge pretty much any unit's inclusion within reason.

The issue is Axis and Allies though, because the category of "authentic" units or units which only saw combat is heavily weighted in favour of the Nazis, purely because they lost the war and in their last desperate years they were more than willing to throw literally everything that could move at the frontlines. The question itself is biased.

Topic has everything to do with balance and gameplay, they want to add it for both purposes. I’d personally have preferred a game focusing on light and mediums and hopefully it doesn’t turn into a bunch of dlc packs adding more and more heavies.

However in the event it does I hope it’s as it is currently BP is allied heavy and the tiger axis. It is important to have that balance as it’s clear relic have been designing their product around it.

Where did I say I would have a problem with the Maus? I wouldn't, really, if it were balanced and fun to use, the only criteria by which I would judge pretty much any unit's inclusion within reason.

The issue is Axis and Allies though, because the category of "authentic" units or units which only saw combat is heavily weighted in favour of the Nazis, purely because they lost the war and in their last desperate years they were more than willing to throw literally everything that could move at the frontlines.

No it is simply not "heavily in favor of the nazis".

All sides made prototype units that saw no action and units that did see action (even if produced in limited numbers.)

There is no "favor" here.

The question here is weather such prototype units should be included in the game or not.

The question itself is biased.

I am not sure which question is biased but I find the fact that you are talking about nazis and losing the war interesting.

COH franchise is basically a game ,now if you are suggesting that because it is based in WWII that the "evil nazis" should lose every game, I have to point out that people would simply not play such a game.

Topic has everything to do with balance and gameplay, they want to add it for both purposes. I’d personally have preferred a game focusing on light and mediums and hopefully it doesn’t turn into a bunch of dlc packs adding more and more heavies.

No it does not, the topic is about prototype units that saw no action being introduced in the franchise.

However in the event it does I hope it’s as it is currently BP is allied heavy and the tiger axis. It is important to have that balance as it’s clear relic have been designing their product around it.

The Franchise has used asymmetrical balance and has proven that one can achieve balance even if not all factions get the same toys.

If you concern is purely balance there is very little reason to push specifically for the black prince since there are other units that could act as allied heavy tanks. The questions who won the war and who was "evil" and who was "benevolent" are really irrelevant here.

Learn to format your posts insteas of replying to everything individually jesus fucking christ

This is just pure nitpicking if you ask me. We can as well say, why "War Machine" existed in vCoH, because it also does look kinda fictional. I will repeat myself again, lets just sum up what kind of fiction was allowed for CoH across both games:

1) Misrepresentation of units
2) Some fictional abilities on units
3) Rare or super rare used equipment representation
4) Believable abilities made to fit gameplay
5) Fictional, but belivable, ammunition on a small scale (grenades mostly)
6) Pure gameplay abilities which-in the scope of represented factions (vCoH USA "War Machine")
7) Wrong time periods
8) Wrong availability of rare equipment

Where would you put Black Prince? It wasn't finished, it wasn't used, it wasn't put into a production. Literally 6 were made and all 6 were prototypes. Besides the fact that BP looks like a ww2 tank, it doesn't fit into any category CoH previously allowed itself to mess with.

The BP does not fit any of your bullet points, but the problem with your list is that there is no reason for it to be the "be all end all". Why should there not be a 9th point added to it? The criterium is not 'what has been done before', but 'what is authentic'. And that's obviously a very subjective criterium, as we can see in this discussion. Some players basically don't care at all, some are very specific, and everything in between.
The BP is a vehicle developed for the war, based on a vehicle and components that have already been used in the war, but the BP itself has never been used in it. We can therefore make some estimates how it might have performed in battle, but using it in a CoH game is pure fiction. My point is, that there is no >huge< difference to e.g. the V1 rocket in CoH: This weapon, as portrayed in the game, has not existed and it is pure fiction. Just pretending it were a "V1 rocket" does not make its use authentic. There has never been a rocket of this type in WW2 that could even somewhat precisely strike a battlefield. It does not get any of the characteristics of the V1 correctly. It looks like a V1, and the name says V1. That's about all there is. Which leads me to the next point, which you summed up perfectly here:

And it would have been perfectly fine with-in the scope of how CoH gameplay mechanics works. Aside from balance\faction reasoning and some commons sense, kubelwagen could be made into a TD, with an ability to fire its MG into some tank weakspot or something

Stuff like this we have already seen in CoH1 and 2. Authenticity is not a binary decision, it's a spectrum. At which point something looks out of place is a subjective thing. Is the BP okay because it looks like a WW2 tank and its performance can somewhat be estimated, although it has only been prototyped? Is the V1 rocket okay, since it is a weapon that has been used, albeit nothing like portrayed in the game? Is the Sturmtiger okay, although it is a rare vehicle and actually had more the range of a Katyusha than a tank?
How closely the in-game unit has to resemble the real thing is really personal taste.

As I stated previously, I'd personally rather not have the BP in the game for various reasons. But it also won't completely break immersion for me if Relic keeps it. I can live with it, but I also don't get why Relic clings on to the BP so much.

I am not sure why people are obsessing with the V1 rocket.

V1's where used in the war as "terror" weapons and they appeared in COH1. Developers tried to adapt the weapon as much as they could in the game and created a "terror" weapon with a pretty long warning so the weapon was not very easy to be use tactically vs moving units. The weapon was better used vs static targets.

There is was very little wrong with with including the weapon or how it was implemented (other that it could be used in base sector and cause massive carnage if time correctly on retreat).