0.5cps? have I missed something?!
No, it's just to imply that 0 CPs is too soon, and 1 CP maybe it's too late, for the unit to be effective and balanced.
I don't have any idea how to fix that mess.
soviet defensive commander MG
23 Nov 2013, 14:32 PM
#61
Posts: 971
No, it's just to imply that 0 CPs is too soon, and 1 CP maybe it's too late, for the unit to be effective and balanced.
I don't have any idea how to fix that mess.
23 Nov 2013, 14:35 PM
#62
Posts: 747
No, it's just to imply that 0 CPs is too soon, and 1 CP maybe it's too late, for the unit to be effective and balanced.
I don't have any idea how to fix that mess.
While I agree with you, there's no half cps in CoH 2 afaik...
23 Nov 2013, 14:39 PM
#63
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
.
While I agree with you, there's no half cps in CoH 2 afaik...
Not yet. If you looked at the beta/balance streams, you will see that relic is doing some experiments with the CP system. It seems they are going for a system where CPs are earned faster, thus changing the scale of CP abilities from 1-7 to something like 1-14
23 Nov 2013, 14:43 PM
#64
Posts: 747
.
Not yet. If you looked at the beta/balance streams, you will see that relic is doing some experiments with the CP system. It seems they are going for a system where CPs are earned faster, thus changing the scale of CP abilities from 1-7 to something like 1-14
Oh ok, I thought that's just for internal testing. Thanks for the clarification!
23 Nov 2013, 15:02 PM
#65
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedIts basically a maxim on steroids.
Only drawback for all that power is a higher cost, which is EASILY offset by not needing to build t2.
CP0 is completely broken and personally I endorse a dramatic range reduction to place it in the HMG meta as a very effective close range force multiplier as measured against MG42s wide backline role and Maxims forward suppression.
Im ok with its superior DPS, Suppression, very fast setup, native AP rounds and even early buildtime and tier free appearance at CP1. But imo the tradeoff should be a short effective range.
Only drawback for all that power is a higher cost, which is EASILY offset by not needing to build t2.
CP0 is completely broken and personally I endorse a dramatic range reduction to place it in the HMG meta as a very effective close range force multiplier as measured against MG42s wide backline role and Maxims forward suppression.
Im ok with its superior DPS, Suppression, very fast setup, native AP rounds and even early buildtime and tier free appearance at CP1. But imo the tradeoff should be a short effective range.
23 Nov 2013, 15:54 PM
#66
Posts: 1439
Sorry Nullist but the range reduction is the most ridiculous idea ever.
23 Nov 2013, 16:35 PM
#67
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedSorry Nullist but the range reduction is the most ridiculous idea ever.
Apology accepted.
Its still my opinion. In any case, it needs to stop being a CP0 Super-Maxim on steroids.
CP change will fix its timing, but something more is needed ro fix its stats.
Other options are reducing its DPS orSuppression, increasing setuptime, reducing arc, reduxing to 4man or making the AP cost more.
Take your pic.
23 Nov 2013, 17:30 PM
#68
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
Apology accepted.
Its still my opinion. In any case, it needs to stop being a CP0 Super-Maxim on steroids.
CP change will fix its timing, but something more is needed ro fix its stats.
Other options are reducing its DPS orSuppression, increasing setuptime, reducing arc, reduxing to 4man or making the AP cost more.
Take your pic.
The timing is the only real issue. You pay 50% more for it than you would for a maxim, so one should expect it to be better than a maxim. Why pay 50% more when it's not more effective than a maxim? Why not make it 240mp then?
23 Nov 2013, 17:55 PM
#69
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedIts fine that it is more effective than a Maxim.
Its not fine that it is more effective than a Maxim in almost every single way possible.
Its not fine that it is more effective than a Maxim in almost every single way possible.
23 Nov 2013, 18:12 PM
#70
Posts: 2742
The 120mm mortar is better than the normal mortar in almost every single way possible AND it can retreat with 1 man.
With the timing delayed, the mg hits the field after Germans have access to the map, allowing armies to be built on both sides where each side would be developing counters for each other's strategies, rather than just going through the sequence of their starting build orders.
It IS exceedingly problematic that the MG is a viable part of a starting build order. It is not, however, deserving of being singled out because all units, especially mgs, receive such magnified utility from being garrisoned due to the state of buildings in the game.
With the MG removed from the 0CP early game, it might actually be utilized defensively against an aggressive German player after that first CP rolls in.
With the timing delayed, the mg hits the field after Germans have access to the map, allowing armies to be built on both sides where each side would be developing counters for each other's strategies, rather than just going through the sequence of their starting build orders.
It IS exceedingly problematic that the MG is a viable part of a starting build order. It is not, however, deserving of being singled out because all units, especially mgs, receive such magnified utility from being garrisoned due to the state of buildings in the game.
With the MG removed from the 0CP early game, it might actually be utilized defensively against an aggressive German player after that first CP rolls in.
Strategic Territory Points Mod:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
23 Nov 2013, 18:12 PM
#71
Posts: 1439
Its fine that it is more effective than a Maxim.
Its not fine that it is more effective than a Maxim in almost every single way possible.
It's only DPS and suppression that's better. You'll take this and it's Maxim with different skin and 120 manpower more expensive.
Also AP grants only penetration. It doesn't increase damage of the unit in any way so you're not doubling your dps by using the ability like it is with MG42.
23 Nov 2013, 18:16 PM
#72
Posts: 2742
German soldiers have a reasonable amount armor though, so that penetration bonus does actually translate directly towards more damage.
Strategic Territory Points Mod:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
23 Nov 2013, 19:07 PM
#73
Posts: 950 | Subs: 1
Woof, Ive started a special bookmark folder for your posts, so I can reference them in future.
I have one more question though.
How does suppression and eventual pinning actually affect the DPS done to the unit that is suppressed or pinned?
The tooltips are quite confusing on this point and there are many mixed reports on it.
suppression gives -2 speed (i believe infantry have a speed of 3), cooldown x4, reload x4, and accuracy x.25. all of this makes dps drop to something like 5-10% in theory. however, they typically crawl around and dont follow orders, so in game its really much less.
pinned makes them unable to move, shoot, use abilities, or cap.
there are very few times when being able to crawl makes any difference. occasionally, you can crawl out of an mgs arc if you were very close to the edge. i think the damage difference is negligible. the biggest difference in my opinion is being able to use abilities.
pinning does have one more advantage though. while pinned, units wont move out of the way of moving vehicles, making them much easier to crush. suppressed units will actually stand up and move at full speed to get out of the way.
something came up and i cant get the dshk numbers yet. ill do it later.
Also AP grants only penetration.
yep. mg42 AP gives 2x damage, 9x pen and .5x reload. dshk only gets the 9x pen.
Only Relic post
23 Nov 2013, 19:11 PM
#74
Posts: 117 | Subs: 5
hey guys,
the Balance team has this item on their radar. Thanks for all the feedback
the Balance team has this item on their radar. Thanks for all the feedback
24 Nov 2013, 00:35 AM
#75
Posts: 950 | Subs: 1
heres the dps table including the dshk. i had to make a minor change to the dps values for the mg42, apparently i forgot to update them before.
and heres suppression
and heres suppression
24 Nov 2013, 01:09 AM
#76
Posts: 604
Interesting. But there seem to be differences between your values and the graphs on the herokuapp site... now I'm confused 
http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/small_arms/maxim_m1910_hmg_mp
http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/small_arms/hmg_team_mg42_mp
http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/small_arms/dshk_38_sokolov_mp
http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/small_arms/maxim_m1910_hmg_mp
http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/small_arms/hmg_team_mg42_mp
http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/small_arms/dshk_38_sokolov_mp
24 Nov 2013, 01:58 AM
#77
Posts: 401
It's important to note that AGrens still dictate the build and strategy for a mach just as much as the DSHK, it just happens that what the DSHK is counters them.
This isn't me saying that X is balanced because Y exists, I hate those kind of comparisons.
I am saying that the 0 CP units and abilities all still need looking at. It doesn't matter which side has them.
Up until now the only 0 CP commander unit was for Germany, and the main reason why it messes up balance was forcing counter builds too early instead of allowing for variety of play styles.
The DSHK does effectively the same thing, forcing counter builds of Mortars or munitions caches for grenades, much like how German players told Soviet players to just build MGs and the M3. Thankfully, counter building for Soviets isn't so much an issue any more with the build time changes for base buildings.
So now both sides are experiencing this frustration.
This isn't me saying that X is balanced because Y exists, I hate those kind of comparisons.
I am saying that the 0 CP units and abilities all still need looking at. It doesn't matter which side has them.
Up until now the only 0 CP commander unit was for Germany, and the main reason why it messes up balance was forcing counter builds too early instead of allowing for variety of play styles.
The DSHK does effectively the same thing, forcing counter builds of Mortars or munitions caches for grenades, much like how German players told Soviet players to just build MGs and the M3. Thankfully, counter building for Soviets isn't so much an issue any more with the build time changes for base buildings.
So now both sides are experiencing this frustration.
24 Nov 2013, 02:25 AM
#78
Posts: 950 | Subs: 1
Interesting. But there seem to be differences between your values and the graphs on the herokuapp site... now I'm confused
http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/small_arms/maxim_m1910_hmg_mp
http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/small_arms/hmg_team_mg42_mp
http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/small_arms/dshk_38_sokolov_mp
ill look into it later to try to find out why we differ. we do use different formulas to caculate our dps though. youll notice his graphs are curved. i use a linear function. the reasoning is kind of confusing. relic claims they use a linear function, yet theyve supplied some numbers which were not linear. were not sure yet which is correct, but i chose to follow relics word and use linear, tensai chose to follow their numbers.
24 Nov 2013, 03:08 AM
#79
Posts: 198
There are two differences in numbers.
First is because Relic posted different information about this numbers - one were numbers for Conscript/Grenadiers weapon DPS at range. The other bit of information was that the DPS loss is linear with range.
But the numbers they provided (I can only remember the numbers for conscripts - range 0: 2.54; range 10: 2.54; range 20: 1.46; range 30: 0.86) weren't linear. So, like wooof said, I went with the numbers, they went with linearity.
The min/max range numbers should be the same though.
There's also a second cause for difference in numbers - I don't round down the RoF of burst weapons.
That's why DPS numbers for burst weapons on my site might be incorrectly up to ~10% higher - I'll be fixing that eventually.
Also, I don't take into account incremental accuracy, so MG42 is actually lower than it should have been.
First is because Relic posted different information about this numbers - one were numbers for Conscript/Grenadiers weapon DPS at range. The other bit of information was that the DPS loss is linear with range.
But the numbers they provided (I can only remember the numbers for conscripts - range 0: 2.54; range 10: 2.54; range 20: 1.46; range 30: 0.86) weren't linear. So, like wooof said, I went with the numbers, they went with linearity.
The min/max range numbers should be the same though.
There's also a second cause for difference in numbers - I don't round down the RoF of burst weapons.
That's why DPS numbers for burst weapons on my site might be incorrectly up to ~10% higher - I'll be fixing that eventually.
Also, I don't take into account incremental accuracy, so MG42 is actually lower than it should have been.
24 Nov 2013, 04:52 AM
#80
1 Posts: 927
problem with the new MG and heavy mortar is they are more powerful (yeah they cost more) but its so easy to spam them when they come with 6 man crew. My suggestion would be lower the crew to 3 man for new MG and heavy mortar so it would be a real choice for the soviet if they want to go with more powerful but more expansive and fragile units or the cheaper more sturdy 6 man. Also its just no fun trying to counter mortar a heavy mortar since you probably will lose, that wouldnt have to be the case if the heavy mortar have less crew.
Saying it costs more is enough isnt good enough.. if mg42 could be upgraded with 100 more manpower to become this minigun i think most would pay up.
Saying it costs more is enough isnt good enough.. if mg42 could be upgraded with 100 more manpower to become this minigun i think most would pay up.
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